Straight from the Source's Mouth: Frank Talk about Sex and Dating
Are you perpetually single? Do you want longer-lasting relationships? Tired of the miscommunication and misunderstandings? Wish you were better in bed? Advice from experts as well as real talk from real people so that you can see you are not alone in your thoughts and experiences. I talk about sex in my stand-up comedy and people often tell me that I say what they are thinking but are too afraid to say or admit it to their partners; too taboo they think. We'll talk about books we've read on dating, relationships and sex so that you can gain knowledge without having to read all the books yourself. I'll interview people on both sides of an issue: people who are great at dating and unsuccessful at dating...learn from the person who's great and also learn what not to do! We'll do the same with sex and relationships so that you can learn what works so you don't need to repeat others' past mistakes. I'll interview sex coaches and love coaches. We intend this to be a how-to guide. Hit subscribe and join us!
Straight from the Source's Mouth: Frank Talk about Sex and Dating
#74 Get Tools for Nurturing Healthy Sexual Communication
Join us as we promise to unravel the crucial elements of sexual health education with the insightful guidance of certified sex therapist Melissa Kilbride. Ever wondered how early conversations about body safety, consent, and pleasure can shape healthier adult relationships? Melissa brings her wealth of experience working with both children and adults to show how these dialogues can reduce trauma and anxiety later in life. We underline the importance of parents providing a safe space and language for their children to discuss their bodies, setting the stage for informed and empowering sexual experiences.
Melissa helps us navigate the tricky terrain of discussing explicit content, like provocative song lyrics, with kids and underscores the necessity of open communication about sexual preferences in relationships. Tackling everything from the introduction of sex toys in everyday settings to demystifying pornography for adolescents, this episode is packed with practical advice and heartfelt stories. By fostering an environment rich in psychoeducation and empathy, we aim to make conversations about sexual health less taboo and more accessible for everyone. Tune in to equip yourself with the tools to cultivate healthier, more open dialogues about sex at any stage of life.
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Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating. Hello everyone, tamara here, welcome to the show. Today's guest is certified sex therapist, melissa Kilbride, and we'll be talking about sexual health and listener concerns. If you like this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. Thanks for joining me, melissa.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 1:Melissa, Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes, I'm excited as well, and I think I usually just jump right into it. So how about if you start off by saying we talked about like why you started this work as Sure, yeah well, I'm a certified sex therapist.
Speaker 2:I'm also a clinical social worker and I own a group practice in Washington DC where now I work with adults and couples only. But part of the work that I do also is to work with parents on educating kids on sexual health topics, consent, body safety issues, all about sex and pornography and things like that. So how I came to this work initially was that out of grad school I worked in pediatric inpatient and realized that almost every single child there, if not every child, had been sexually abused, and I started to become really aware of the trauma that comes from these types of experiences and how it lasts throughout the life cycle. And then I worked with pregnant and parenting teens. And then along the way I had my own kids and was getting really tough questions.
Speaker 2:And as I transitioned my professional work to working with adults as a therapist, they would come in people saying I'm here for anxiety, I'm here for depression, I've had this trauma. Come in people saying I'm here for anxiety, I'm here for depression, I've had this trauma. But more and more I realized we were always talking about sex. And it occurred to me along the way that if we and I say we as individual parents, but also we as a culture, as a society, could do better about educating kids on sexual health topics. Then in adulthood, some of these things that create anxiety and depression and impact our sex lives negatively could be avoided. And so I think that is kind of how I come to the work from all angles and why I still do the work with parents, as well as adults and couples in practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome and I think I mentioned I had a woman on who was a mother and you know, talking about her own sex life in general, but then also how she shared it with kids, so she didn't get to the point where you had mentioned we talked about earlier. You know, like the lifelong ramifications of not speaking up and you know, just kind of having bad experiences. So how about you say more about some of the issues that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, well, you know it could be all sorts of things, starting with some of the more simplistic. You know, I've had adult clients share with me stories about how they got the quote unquote sex talk, and I'm not a big fan of the idea of a talk. It's an ongoing conversation, but when a parent when that talk goes something like sex can kill you and that's all there is to it, it can leave a mark right, the religious tones of how we talk about sex with kids. You kind of fast forward 30 years and people are feeling sinful about their bodies. They're feeling sinful about their desires, Even things like what we call erectile dysfunction.
Speaker 2:I don't always love the word dysfunction there, but we normalize the idea that erections come and go easily, they stay the same throughout an entire sexual experience, which is false. And so you know, a lot of times people will show up in my office saying, oh, I have erectile dysfunction, or I can't ejaculate, or they believe something is really dysfunctional, when the truth of the matter is that there are lots of different levels of normal erections come and go, ejaculation can take a different amount of time depending on what sex act you're in, and so if we could normalize these types of things earlier, and really it's not that we would be talking to 10, 12 year olds about these kinds of things, but giving them the language to talk about their bodies and to ask questions and to safely and appropriately research what is normal, then we could help those things become less traumatic or problematic later.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know you mentioned like preventing abusive relationships as well as part of it, just because, well, you can say more about that since you're the expert.
Speaker 2:No, I mean certainly what we know about child abuse is that when kids have language to talk about body parts, to feel safe and comfortable talking about body parts, it reduces the incidences of sexual abuse and it increases the likelihood that if something happens, they will talk about it. It and so how? I mean that's one of the ways that it translates later to life right that if you are feeling safe and comfortable talking about something not feeling right, not being okay, not feeling safe you're more likely to recognize it as such and speak up about it. The other side of that that I think is really important and parents kind of cringe when they hear the word pleasure. It's kind of like the word moist. People don't like it.
Speaker 2:But the idea of talking about pleasure, especially with kids, is not necessarily talking about orgasm, but it's learning at a young age that if somebody is going to touch you or if you are going to touch somebody, that that should be a positive experience and that might go for hand-holding and hugging in young kids Like, does that friend want to hug? Did you like when that person held your hand? But if you're teaching that and talking about that and having kids make that connection between, yes, I like that touch or no, I didn't. Then as they get older there's more awareness around it. As they start to become sexual beings in adolescence they start to realize, oh, this is supposed to feel good for me. Well, maybe it doesn't. Maybe I need to speak up about that. These are things you know.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a time where it was like go along to get along. Nobody was talking about pleasure for girls at all. I don't even think I had a sense that that was a part of what sex was. So part of the healthy relationship piece later in life is letting kids know that sex is not about pleasing a partner, it's about two people feeling good and feeling safe. And I think then that kind of starts to translate into later relationships, people being more compunitive, drawing better boundaries. And obviously you know there is a thread between that and abusive relationships. But abuse also kind of is its own category.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see where, like you said, if you're don't speak up about anything you're not, definitely not going to speak up about. You know poor behavior to you as well, so kind of it's like you know the far end of that spectrum.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes you know, parents have said to me like, oh, I would never talk to my eight year old about these kinds of topics. There's no way I'll talk to them when they're 15. And I often think you know, if you can't say the words penis, vagina, vulva to a five-year-old, an eight-year-old, a 10-year-old, no way are you going to sit down with a 16-year-old and start to talk about what is a healthy sexual relationship and, furthermore, that teenager is not going to listen to you. They are going to be way uncomfortable with those topics. They might be even if you do talk about it throughout the lifespan. But so I think, kind of getting in front of it and even practicing you know, as they're babies and starting to get comfortable as kids grow up with just using the language of body parts and body safety is really important the same way and you're not looking at each other, like those are the good places.
Speaker 1:And then laying in bed with the lights off, but obviously not. Maybe not with kids, depending on the age, but yeah, like those kinds of places where you don't actually have to look at each other, You're just kind of listening and listening mode. Would you recommend that kind of stuff or like what other?
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes, and as the car, you know, no one can get away. We're kind of stuck in it, and I'm really big on talking about what I call natural conversation starters, which are just, you know, things that are happening in our lives every day that give us opportunities to talk about these things, and the car is great for that, because song lyrics are a phenomenal conversation starter, and I think it's so interesting how a lot of times, parents will say oh my kids don't know about that, or I would never talk to them about it.
Speaker 2:And then you listen to the things they're singing. You know there's that song out now on Vanilla Baby. I'll choke you, but blah, blah, blah. I can't remember the words. Jack Harlow, it was like the number one song in the country and all these kids are singing it and I mean it's essentially about choking during sex and parents are like, oh, I would never talk to my child about that, but they're talking to you about it, they're inviting you into this. They don't know it, but as they're singing, there kind of is just so much opportunity there to say, hey, do you know what this is about? Do you know what he's referring to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually noticed that the radios seem to start cutting that part out. There's a lot less of the song they play on the radio of it. I definitely noticed early on all the words. He's basically front right. You can even use it in that way like look, he's like telling somebody up front what he's willing to do and what he's not yeah, yeah, actually, um, that was a good segue.
Speaker 1:I know we were. I'm not sure if we were done on this topic, but maybe we can come back to if we need to. The um as far as a listener concern was that exact thing of asking the partner for what you need and, um, like there's one example, a listener was mentioning that his partner wanted rougher sex and he was like very weirded out by that. You know, like, just you know I, he eventually, you know, figured it out and was able to. But just kind of talk to that concept of you know asking for stuff and giving it and what you feel about that no-transcript, and the truth is that that's not always the right starting point.
Speaker 2:It's can my partner? Will my partner? Does my partner want to? Is there a safe way for my partner to? Um, oftentimes people feel that their desire should, there's just an expectation this is my desire, it should be met, and so one of the ways that I would address that and sounds like in this case it was it was resolved. Um, but the resolution isn't always that the person learns to be comfortable with the sex act. It's often that the partner learns okay, this isn't something that is going to work in this way, and I get to live in my head in a fantasy world about that playing out with my partner or other people right, like what we get to do in our brain nobody needs to know about.
Speaker 2:But it starts with conversation and then the way that I like to explore it with clients kind of goes back to this whole lifespan idea. Like what are your ideas about that? What does rough sex mean? When did you first encounter or understand what that was? What is distressing or scary to you about it or what is arousing to you about it? What components of it, like? What would your lines be and why?
Speaker 2:Oftentimes when we start exploring it, we realize that people have assigned some meaning that may or may not be at all accurate or what their partner is interested in.
Speaker 2:And if you can get to that, sometimes that's a way for people to either understand why their partner is setting such a firm boundary or for somebody to say, well, maybe I would consider a version of that or maybe we can ease into that more safely. But you know I'm making this up. But in a partnership where maybe somebody had an abusive situation or some type of assault and their partner is interested in rough sex, that just might not be an option because of that person's trauma history. There are other situations where, you know, maybe somebody was physically punished as a kid, they were spanked, and that is an association that they have with being bad in a way that is not arousing right or actually, as Contra indicated to arousal for that person, and so the partner might be able to understand that and say, okay, I get it. It's not about not pleasing me, it's not about not wanting what I want, it's that it doesn't work for this person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's a great answer. That's probably why you're a therapist.
Speaker 2:It's the training.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then one other along those same veins, like introducing toys. The same listener mentioned that you know now there's toys like in CVS, not just you don't have to only go to sex toy shops, you know like there's, there's more and it seems more normalized. What are your thoughts on introducing and and? Again, if someone is like weirded out by it because they feel like they're inadequate, by saying you need it instead of them or something, yeah, I mean one.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, what I will say too, about them being in CVS and everything now is talk about a natural conversation starter. You could be picking up some allergy medicine with your eight-year-old and it's like what's this thing? It says vibrating pleasure, so it's right in your face all the time. But the question is a good one, and I think so. A couple of pieces here.
Speaker 2:With sex therapy, one of the things that I think is almost like always my starting point is what I'd call psychoeducation, just helping people and this goes back to what we were saying before helping people understand really, on some level it can be as simple as anatomy also desire and arousal and how those cycles really work right, because using a vibrator can be an anatomical need. Sometimes two bodies don't come together in a way that's going to lead to pleasure and orgasm. So there's a tool. Sometimes using a vibrator is to change things up. People can feel bored with monotony. It's not about not desiring your partner or them not being capable. It's about something different.
Speaker 2:And the other thing is that desire and arousal happen differently for different people. A lot of times it's gendered, but not always, and so oftentimes for women there needs to be an engagement in the activity in order to get to the full desire and arousal states, whereas for typically again, I'm gendering, but typically men it can be more simultaneous. And so, again, thinking of sex toy as a tool, not as a replacement. But you need the education to get there. And I will say too, language matters. I mean, I have worked with couples where they have said things to one another like well, you're not working for me, so we got to get something else right, and there's like this whole element of blame and that's not helpful. And it also sometimes comes from a lack of knowledge of one's own body and understanding of one's own arousal cycle.
Speaker 2:I mean, you could be in a headspace where you're just not going to be able to access the level of arousal for orgasm and you know that's not necessarily on your partner on your partner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, like you said earlier, just communicate that and like, well, there's a website and I'm not sure if you've heard of this. Omg, yes, it's a new website. Yeah, it's like a lot of tutorials on female pleasure and yeah, and I used to talk about standup comedy about the clitoris being like neglected. You know, I pretty much was like on stage pointing to it and saying don't forget about this, and that is what vibrators do for women, because the clitoris is external and you know, obviously there's G-spot and other areas, but you know, like you said, go ahead for women for all sorts of pelvic health issues, whether that be orgasm related or incontinence.
Speaker 2:There's muscle tightening and pain disorders, things like vulvodynia and vaginismus, where the muscles can be so tight that it's problematic during sex. So I'm glad you reminded me to go here, because I think the other part of this in that psychoeducation piece is understanding that this may be a necessary tool to help your partner get to a place where your sex life can be more fun, more active, more not more less painful. And they're prescribed sometimes so it's. You know, there are a lot of reasons why people would bring in different types of toys Same with cock rings that can help maintain erections and things like that. So we call them sex toys, but they are often sex tools.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I had someone who invented it from Mystery Vibe. He invented, like you're saying, like a larger, thicker cock ring to hold. You know, to keep is for people with ED, so it kind of like. And then there was also a vibrating part to it too, so it was like pleasure for both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's interesting because we use tools and accommodations in so many different ways. Right, and it's something that in the bedroom is like seen as either often insulting or like so out there and crazy and wild, when really like, for many people, it really is a tool no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a. That's a tricky one, right? Um, because potentially the more she was paying attention to it, the more it kind of took him out of the moment of pleasure into a place of insecurity and discomfort and um, and that's a situation where, first of all, the communication is so important. You know one thing, and obviously like I don't have the person here to dive in and pick their brain about it, but again I would go back to kind of what, when were you made fun of for it? Did people comment on it? Like, where did this idea that this is such a shameful part of you come from Trying to get into that? Then the other part is for the partner recognizing that maybe part of the like enjoyment of it is self-focused, but maybe she thought she was, you know, helping him out by paying extra special attention to it, when in fact that's you know, the opposite is happening because there's so much focus Oftentimes with things like that, I kind of would suggest what does it look like without that for now? And how do we start to kind of work towards it? Because if there's that much discomfort, it probably speaks to just not being ready for him, for the belly button owner, like not being in a place where he's ready for that in his own way. Maybe he gets there, maybe he doesn't.
Speaker 2:I'd also be curious just between the couple how much have they talked about it? How much has she shared about what she loves and what she wants out of it, or what she not wants but gets, and what is that like for him to hear, and maybe he works his way up? Maybe it's something they talk about outside of sex, outside of intimacy. Can he tolerate that? Or is it even uncomfortable in those situations? Almost like kind of a slow exposure to are you getting comfortable?
Speaker 2:The other part of that that I really want to mention or go back to is you know boundaries and consent like they're absolute right, and I think sometimes in committed relationships, when people feel safe in so many ways, somebody sets a boundary. The other person thinks, oh, it's like silly right If he's saying you know, stay away from my belly button, I'm making this up. I don't know if he's saying that and she's thinking, oh, he doesn't care that much or it's not really bothering him and she keeps doing it. There's a trust break there which is only going to continue to break down the intimacy and break down the relationship and honoring that request is so fundamentally important, even if she can't understand it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Yeah, and the more it happens like, the more resentment or potentially, or all the things that could happen.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I hear versions of this all the time, like the idea of no, meaning no in a moment, but not like try again later, even in couples that have been married for 20, 30 years. And like she's like every time he does X, Y, z, I ask him to stop, and he still tries. And it's like gosh, it takes you out of the moment. You know, when you're kind of like all of a sudden, like what the fuck? I've said no to this for 30 years and like why does my partner think tonight's the night? It's disrespectful and it can create like a physiological sensation of being unsafe and nothing takes you out of intimacy more than feeling unsafe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, I know I kind of took us off the what you're talking about earlier with kids and education. Did you want to?
Speaker 2:Is there anything I missed that you missed there that you wanted to bring back up, or for Mama, where I talk about a lot of, if folks are interested in following and learning more about the how to start those conversations. But it really is. I love the way our conversation flowed today because it kind of speaks to both sides of that that you know, having those conversations, starting those conversations, I should say, when kids are really little, giving them the language, the comfort, the awareness that they have grownups that are safe to go to with difficult questions, can start to open a door to them where sex is not such a taboo subject and it's not unsafe to talk about, it's not frowned upon to talk about, and help them get a lot of their questions answered across the lifespan, really feel more comfortable talking in relationships about sex. And the one thing I will say I never want to be anywhere and not say this because it's such a big topic is porn.
Speaker 2:When it comes to pornography in children, you know, whatever you think about pornography as an adult, it is not for children. Period the end. And so I always want to make sure parents are recognizing that they need to be telling tweens and teens that pornography is not an accurate portrayal of sex, and I even talk about like with younger kids if they have access to a device, they should know that. You know, maybe they don't need to know the word pornography at six or seven, but they do need to understand that like there are lots of things out there that they may see that might feel kind of funny or kind of weird or kind of scary, and that's just a movie. So that was a little bit of a segue, but it's an important piece because it does fuel a lot of these conversations later about what people think is typical.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, definitely. I was going to bring it up earlier too and I forgot, so I'm glad you did. And have you heard of the site Make Love, not Porn?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I haven't checked it out yet, but I have. There's like a lot more coming out right now because of, I think, what a trend it is among teens and how they're learning about sex through porn, so I have to check that one out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely. It's like real couples, couples and it's more you know a loving sexual encounter versus just you know all the stuff we know about, especially because, especially, like you're saying, for teens, it gives them, it gives the boys, unrealistic ideas of what to do and then the women think they just have to perform and act like they really like it, which is what especially older women it probably did when they were younger too. Like you said, that's what we were kind of given or taught. If someone can give the perfect convo, what would you say to set everyone up for just what sex is in general? How would you describe it as?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's so hard, right, because it really is age dependent, so it's hard for me to say one perfect conversation, but I think you know, for the younger, younger kids it's really about. I mean, when young, young kids are asking, it's about how babies are made, like this miracle of how did I get here? Right, it's not a sex question. But once we get to tweens and adolescents, it really is about. Like you know, sex can can take on a lot of forms. It's important that it feels safe and it feels comfortable. You, by adolescence, kids should understand that.
Speaker 2:You know there are different types of sex, whether that's heteronormative or not and um, which, which is a language shift, because when I was learning about sex I mean sex ed was so poor time it still is, but it was definitely like about penis and vagina sex, right, but what if you're not having penis and vagina sex? You didn't stay a virgin forever, so, recognizing that sexual activity can include oral and anal, it can be. You know, I had a kid actually asked me a really great question about if you're naked with somebody, is that considered sexual activity? And it's like, well, yes, right, but when a doctor asks you if you're sexually active, they're not asking, if you like, felt somebody's boobs, right, so anyway, I'm not answering your question. Maybe I'm screwing it because it's such a complicated one-time conversation, but the takeaway for parents, I think, is that any of these types of conversations are really opening the door for future conversations and for questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess I was thinking more along the lines of like when they say sex is bad, sex is sinful, like what in place of that? What could you say about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, our sex is about pleasure, it's about connection, it's about sharing something really safe and special with another person. You know different families, depending on religious and cultural backgrounds, are going to speak to it a little bit differently, but that would be the umbrella to me that you know it's something that our bodies were like gifted to do in ways that are safe and comfortable and when we're ready, and that there's no one right way. And that there's no one right way and that's part of the communication and the consent piece is that like making sure that if you're, if you're doing sex with a partner right because there can be solo sex that anybody and everybody involved feel safe and comfortable.
Speaker 1:Okay, awesome, and I know you mentioned your Instagram of how to get ahold of you. Is there any other way or is that the primary way you prefer?
Speaker 2:My website is mlktherapycom.
Speaker 1:You can also email me at melissa, at mlktherapycom, or DM me through the Instagram at askablemama. Okay, all right. Well, I will offer, like any closing comments.
Speaker 2:We kind of did that a second ago. So up to you. But if there's some more, you wanted to kind of sexual health throughout the lifespan and thinking about what it means at different points in your life, in your kid's life, and that talking about sex is not teaching kids to have sex. Talking about sex is making us all healthier sexual beings.
Speaker 1:Okay, awesome. Well, thank you again for being on and if you liked this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. And thanks again, melissa.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:All right, bye everyone, thank you.
