#89 BDSM as Therapy: Breaking Shame and Finding Freedom

What if the path to healing your deepest wounds lies in unexpected territory? Mistress Mia Payne, a professional dominatrix and certified therapeutic BDSM practitioner, reveals how controlled power exchange can unlock profound emotional release where traditional therapy falls short.

Beyond Hollywood's misrepresentations, therapeutic BDSM creates safe spaces for processing trauma, anxiety, and depression through physical experiences that engage the body where emotions are stored. For some clients, it's about reclaiming power after abuse or trauma. For others—particularly high-achieving professionals—sessions provide rare moments of mental quiet when they temporarily surrender the burden of constant responsibility. From age regression therapy that nurtures the inner child to sensation play that triggers healing neurochemical releases, these modalities address needs as unique as the individuals seeking them.

Shame emerges as the silent barrier to personal growth and intimate connection. Whether rooted in religious upbringing, strict parenting, or societal judgment, shame creates what Mistress Mia calls "a ribbon that runs through everything." By creating environments where all aspects of self are accepted, clients learn to integrate both shadow and light—a crucial step toward authentic living. "When we fully accept ourselves in all our parts," she explains, "then we can fully accept other people."

Having recently completed certification with the Therapeutic BDSM Collaborative Network, Mistress Mia now partners with therapists to design customized experiences for clients who feel stuck in traditional healing approaches. She emphasizes finding skilled practitioners who understand not just techniques but human psychology, as this vulnerable work requires trustworthy guidance. For those curious about exploring this cutting-edge healing modality, visit paynewithpurpose.com to learn more about her self-development dungeon and services.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Therapeutic BDSM
• 1:41 Misconceptions and Shame in BDSM
• 5:30 Types of BDSM Therapeutic Modalities
• 10:42 Certification and Body-Mind Connection
• 16:29 Finding a Skilled Practitioner
• 21:41 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating. Hello everyone, Tamara here, Welcome to the show. Today's guest is Mistress Mia Payne, a professional dominatrix, and we'll be talking about BDSM and using it as a therapeutic tool. Thanks for joining me, Mistress Mia.

Speaker 2: 0:19

Nice to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:20

Yes, I think this is a great topic. We've had an introductory episode before, but I'm not sure if anyone a lot of people would realize that this could be used as a therapeutic tool. So do you want to say more about that?

Speaker 2: 0:47

a lot of it tends to be for women sexual trauma, sometimes abuse trauma, where they feel disempowered. People come to me when they want to experience rites of passage and they would like to help create their rite of passage. And some people come to me for anxiety, depression and just sort of a quiet space for their brain, and I provide that in a bunch of different ways depending on the client's needs and interests. Using BDSM as an intentional tool is fairly new. I would say it's cutting edge right now. But I like to tell people that, just like massage therapy, it used to be considered taboo to go to have somebody touch your naked body. Right, they assumed it was sexual. The same is true of BDSM.

Speaker 2: 1:32

It's just sort of not as well understood and Hollywood hasn't done us any favors, so people don't know what it is or how it works. Don't know what it is or how it works, and there are so many aspects of what I do that really allow the person to break free of things that they're carrying to experience, for example, nurturing. So not everything I do is pain-based. Some of it is a nurturing environment, some of it is more of an appreciative environment. So somebody who feels really misunderstood or unseen in the world might come to me and ask to provide tasks for me, to do tasks for me, and then they just want to receive affirmation so it can help them feel like their efforts are appreciated and that they are seen. So there's lots of different tools and modalities that I use in my practice. I fully support sex work. I think it's real work. I don't provide that.

Speaker 1: 2:42

So my particular stable is is not it's a non-sexual practice, but um, but yeah, but I, but everything else is on the table, so it's a lot of yeah, yeah, I mean I can see, like as soon as I read the the topic that you were covering, that where it would be helpful, because people have a lot of hangups, like you said, and you want to talk about like removing shame as well, like just why you have the kinks, why what happened to you that you know caused you to have these, and then actually, you know getting either if you're not comfortable with them, getting comfortable or maybe even just understanding why you have some.

Speaker 2: 3:22

Yeah, but I'd like to challenge you to consider the fact that kink is not often caused by a traumatic event. That's only true in some cases. For some people their brains are just wired that way and so it's not always sort of a result of trauma. It can actually just be the way somebody is born. So kinks are far more common than people think they are, and the little granny next door that you would have no idea has an interest in something unusual probably does.

Speaker 2: 3:57

And yeah, it's interesting to me the types of people that come through my door, and a lot of them are carrying shame. A lot of them have shame from religious backgrounds. A lot of them have shame from very strict parent backgrounds. Sometimes those things go hand in hand and a lot of times it's just sort of society right, like if a man you were dating said to you I love feet like feet, turn me on. For the vast number of uneducated in kink women, that would be a weird experience and they would probably be turned off by that, so that man would not have a second date with you and they would feel shameful because they revealed something vulnerable about themselves, and that thing would have been the reason why they're not getting a second date.

Speaker 2: 4:49

So shame can come from a lot of different places. But in my space we do a lot of shame release because all of it is normal and all of it is okay and all of it can be used as a tool for their benefit. And sometimes that benefit is just fun. It's just a break from adulting for a little bit. Right. It's like cops and robbers, but just a little different. It's a little bit of play, a little bit of imagination, and the mind is a powerful thing.

Speaker 1: 5:19

So, yeah, yeah, yeah, like cause. I know I've heard like people who are powerful out in life, like in the bedroom, prefer not to be powerful and it's kind of. I've heard that a couple episodes now.

Speaker 2: 5:30

It's just an opportunity for you to downshift from responsible to you're not responsible. Right, you hand over the mantle of exhausting responsibility to somebody else for a period of time so that your brain can just go quiet, and that's really what some of not all, but some of my clients need. They're in high powered positions, they tend to be very intelligent, and coming to me gives them a break. They can just just relax and be at ease.

Speaker 1: 6:03

Yeah, and then. So BDSM specifically, what kind of examples or modalities? Or, like you mentioned, there's a lot, but like a couple of examples or so in my practice I do a wide variety of things.

Speaker 2: 6:16

We can do some age play, which I consider regression therapy of some kind. So people who have had traumatic or neglectful experiences as a child might find it beneficial to reenact them being a child for a period of time where they are nurtured, read stories, offered juice boxes and given a chance to play the part of a child who did not receive what they needed to back. Then that can be often very cathartic for people. I do provide a lot of pain play. That is my specialty. So I use a bunch of different kinds of implements, from floggers to canes, to crops to hairbrushes, a bunch of different things that cause different sensations on the body. So sensation play and impact play are my sort of specialties, my forte. And then I can do things like pet play.

Speaker 2: 7:14

Pet play is sometimes fun for people. They get to just not be human for a little bit and that can be an interesting experience for them to disassociate from their human experience into something less sort of mental or cerebral and just instinctive and in the moment. So that can be helpful. A lot of task play. So people will just serve me and they receive admiration. Sometimes they receive some kind of a treat in exchange. So, yeah, so again, there's so many different things. Bondage I do a lot of shibari, a lot of different bondage activities to help people calm their nervous system with deep pressure therapy. Yeah, so so many things, yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Yeah, and do they usually. Is it usually a short-term thing or a long-term thing? Or like once they you find out they have more stuff like underneath, or like how does?

Speaker 2: 8:17

Well, people who come to me tend to stay for a while, not necessarily because it's quote unquote, not working, but because they find it's beneficial in a lot of different ways.

Speaker 2: 8:28

For example, if somebody comes to me and their self-esteem is very low and they're struggling with feeling sort of strong in the world, then coming to me and being challenged by something that is a tangible challenge that they can overcome and then feel good about that overcoming, can change everything right. Suddenly they may feel more confident and be able to go ask for that raise or to go and address the issue in their relationship that's holding their relationship apart back. And so when they come and they see that it makes a difference, some of them stay just for the ongoing benefits. There are people who just would like one session. It's more like a release because and those are usually pain experiences. So they come, I provide for them a series of painful experiences and then they sort of because the body, all of these neurochemicals, right, it can give you a sort of a high, and that high can last, for you know, up to two weeks. So some people just come once in a while just to receive that benefit and then they come back when they need another, another break.

Speaker 1: 9:46

And is there usually? I know you said it's not always trauma. So are there other like? Why do people like? What are some reasons people have given for coming to you Like, like the?

Speaker 2: 9:56

anxiety, depression, difficulty in their marriage. Some of them have had fetishes like foot fetish or like a being, a being small fetish for a really long time and have just never had a place to try it or experience it. Women come to me mostly for therapy like mental and emotional trauma therapy. A lot of them have been in talk therapy for a really long time and they just need to try something else. Them have been in talk therapy for a really long time and they just need to try something else, something sometimes they feel stuck in their own growth and healing and they need something to kind of move them past that limitation that they've kind of come up against.

Speaker 2: 10:38

I actually just graduated from a program for becoming certified in therapeutic BDSM and it's with the. It's a therapeutic BDSM collaborative network. So essentially this program is brand new and what it does is pair a therapist either a sex therapist or a regular therapist with a pro practitioner who is also certified in therapeutic BDSM and together they create a program or scene to help the client to move past wherever they're stuck, which is really exciting. It's nice to see that this sort of new way of doing things is there's a method for it, so it's exciting.

Speaker 1: 11:22

Yeah, and I do say that you know the body keeps. The score is one book that I've mentioned a few times that you keep your trauma somewhere in your body so I can see where like emotional emotions, are stored in fascia.

Speaker 2: 11:36

So whatever you're doing to that space between your layer and your muscles, your skin and your muscles a layer, whatever you're doing to it, will activate whatever trauma or emotional trauma is left right. So, whether you're going to a massage therapist, whether you're going to a somatic practitioner, whether you are going somewhere to be cupped, coming to somebody like me who will activate those parts of your body, you're bound to find something to process and release, which is exciting because at the end of a session, you feel like you've done something. You've done some good work for yourself and you're moving in the right direction.

Speaker 1: 12:18

Yeah, and I can see where it's also more passive too. Well, depending, I guess, on tasks it wouldn't be passive, but as far as the bondage side of it would be, you're kind of like forced to release, you know, in a way where you wouldn't be able to like let yourself go.

Speaker 2: 12:33

Is that a thing, or so? We don't ever force somebody to release, but we do. We do force, with their consent, for them to be still, and being still is an activity that we don't do well in this cup, in this country or this culture. I guess we like to always be busy distracted. When we feel something, we grab our phone and we just scroll, and so when you're unable to distract yourself from your mind because you're tied up and you cannot do anything else, sometimes that can bring stuff up, and if you're ready to deal with it, you will.

Speaker 1: 13:03

So yeah, Okay, yeah, yeah, I'm someone like a lot of people have said there's probably something there and I just don't really let myself go. I don't busy myself necessarily, but I also don't feel my body as much, and I've mentioned that in several episodes. But yeah, so now and every every time I interview someone, I'm like, oh, I need to try this.

Speaker 2: 13:22

Yeah, have you ever done this kind of experience? Have you ever had it?

Speaker 1: 13:33

I had it. Yeah, I had one experience with someone who was into BDSM. So I met him at a FetLife thing and I was trying it out to see and I did enjoy it, but it was more, you know, a sexual thing than it was anything therapeutic.

Speaker 2: 13:42

And then were you on the receiving end, so were you submissive yeah, yeah and did anything come up for you during that process, or was it just primarily an erotic experience?

Speaker 1: 13:53

yeah, definitely more the latter, the erotic thing. So that's what I mean. Like I probably could even like block stuff out like that and just have the, the sensual side of it, okay.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Okay, interesting.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Yeah, but yeah, so maybe I'll have to talk after.

Speaker 2: 14:09

Happy, happy to help.

Speaker 1: 14:11

But speaking of which, how can? If someone did want to work with you, how can they reach you and where can they find?

Speaker 2: 14:16

you. So, um, they can go to pain with purpose, and it's spelled P A Y N E with purposecom. Um, that's my self-development dungeon site and you can connect with me there. You can message me. There's a little window to the lower right and you could just send me a message. Those messages go directly to my email and nobody else reads them, so you don't have to worry about privacy. And then there's you know, my services are listed, there's some information about me on the website so you can know who I am, some pictures of some things I've, you know, participated in. So if you looking me up, there's probably the most helpful. You can also find Mistress Mia Payne, p-a-y-n-e on social medias like Instagram and Facebook. I think Facebook has pain with purpose, is my title there. It's a brand new group, so I'm hoping to do some more things with Q&A there. So, yeah, so that's the best way to reach me.

Speaker 2: 15:19

I'm in Ontario, canada, so I'm east of Toronto. I can travel to some degree, but I at the moment will not travel into the US. So anybody who wants to come up to Canada can certainly do that. We can meet. Even I can bring all of my tools and things and we can set up in a hotel room. Those are outcalls, and I've done them often and then you can always travel to me and there's it's a beautiful town. You can get an Airbnb and have a whole weekend of care in this way. So, yeah, so there's lots of experiences that we can share together, regardless of where you are. Oh, and I also teach, so if you're an individual or a couple who would like to learn more about it how to do it safely, what are some things and tips and tricks I can also provide that as an option.

Speaker 1: 16:10

Awesome. Okay, thank you. And then I know we mentioned shame a little bit. Did you want to talk more about it, or did you feel like we covered that well enough?

Speaker 2: 16:30

Well, I think it's say, in my opinion, that will stop growth and you reaching your potential faster than anything else. I think that we can blame a lot of our lack of success or whatever we can find things to blame it on, but if you really take time to look below it, a lot of times there's a shame sort of ribbon that runs through everything, and when you learn how to set yourself free from shame, it changes the game, because the world opens up in a way that you haven't had access to it before. And when we fully, fully accept ourselves in all of our parts, shadow and light, then we can fully accept other people. And until we can do that, we tend to be more judgmental, we tend to be more closed off to deep intimacy, and it all starts with us, and so shame is really important to face and to process and remove.

Speaker 1: 17:37

And I know obviously you do it through BDSM as well, but, like, is there more to say about how you would do that, or is that for someone to figure?

Speaker 2: 17:45

out when to say it's so individually customized that it's not like a, it's not specific, it's not a, it's not like a thing I can say I will do every time. So it doesn't really help to give you, give an example. Every person is different. Um, I do a lot of intuitive reading. So when I meet with a person to discuss and receive consent and to find what their limits are and express my limits, that's where I learn how they tick. I'm able to kind of read somebody pretty quickly and know what activities, what experiences are going to help bring them to where they need to be the most efficiently. And I find, too, that trying to sort of give an outline of how to help somebody heal is kind of irresponsible, because you're essentially cookie-cuttering an experience that can't be cookie-cuttered. There's so many variables and it just makes it seem like you know something you don't and you don't know until you meet the person. So yeah, I don't do that.

Speaker 1: 18:53

Yeah, no, I can see that. Yeah, are there any? Um? I know you said you can't really give examples or you could, but it's so cookie cutter, that would what would be the point. But do you have any, um, either? Closing comments or more, you would like to say, to make sure people get this concept?

Speaker 2: 19:14

So I would just say that anytime that we're doing something with the body, there's an opportunity for healing something that's not physical and BDSM is no exception. It depends on the person who is doing the activity for you and with you. They need to be skilled, they need to understand the importance and the depth of what they're doing. This work isn't likely to happen just in a random play date. It would have to be with somebody you trust, somebody that is either trained or you have built a rapport with, because our nervous systems don't really let us become that vulnerable with people that we don't know well or we can't reasonably trust their credentials.

Speaker 2: 19:59

So I would say, if you're going to venture into this which I strongly suggest you do find somebody that is skilled and knowledgeable in this way, and not just in the art of the dominance, but also somebody who understands humans people you know. Like I, have a coaching background, so I do a lot of life coaching as well, which is not BDSM related, and because I have life coaching skills, I can put those kinds of things at work in this work as well. So, yeah, so I would just say, make sure you're looking for somebody credentialed or somebody that you are pretty sure is safe, because just like you can heal, you can also do damage if you're not doing it well.

Speaker 1: 20:45

So yeah, like if people don't even know about this, what issue could they have that you would suggest, like this would be a good thing for them?

Speaker 2: 20:53

Well, anytime that you have an event or a feeling of powerlessness. So if, if you've experienced something that has left you feeling powerless, if you have that thing that goes around in your mind over and over and you just wish you could have undone it, or you wish you could have said something to stop it, or you know some kind of a missed opportunity to stand up for yourself, bdsm is an opportunity to learn how not to abandon yourself, because you have to advocate for yourself and you have to set your limits. And you have to set your limits and a skilled practitioner will check in with you regularly to find out if your limits are close, like if you're reaching your limits. So learning to self-advocate, I think, is really part of that. So anytime you feel powerless is definitely one thing. Rape, abuse of any kind financial, emotional, spiritual, all of those kinds of traumas leave us feeling like we can't really trust ourselves, and learning how to trust yourself is key to any kind of BDSM relationship.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Okay, yeah, I can see how this would be paired with regular therapy, like if you're not making headway, and or just a little extra, like you said. Yeah, so all right, awesome. Well, thank you very much for being on. I think this was very educational. Well, good.

Speaker 2: 22:13

I'm glad A lot of it?

Speaker 1: 22:14

Yeah, and probably a little, I'm sure. Like you said, it's a new program, so new information. So yeah, but it makes sense Awesome.

Speaker 2: 22:21

All right.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Well, if you enjoyed this episode, to tell your friends about it and rate it as well, and thank you again, mistress Payne, for being on.

Speaker 2: 22:28

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 22:30

Bye everyone, thank you.