#94 Your Fighting is Actually a Sign You Care!

Ever noticed how the person you love most can trigger your worst reactions? That's no accident—it's attachment in action.

Couples therapist Figs O'Sullivan joins us to reveal the surprising truth behind relationship conflicts: we don't fight because we don't care, but because we care deeply. Drawing from his journey from childhood dysfunction to creating a loving family, Figgs shares the three-pillar framework that guides his transformative approach to couples therapy.

At the heart of his method lies attachment theory—the understanding that humans need emotional connection from birth until death. When we perceive threats to our bond with a loved one, our nervous system goes into protection mode. Combined with systems theory, we see how couples create feedback loops where one person's defensive reaction triggers the other's fears, escalating conflicts despite their best intentions.

"We're not a threat to each other," Figs explains, "we're just two threatened people having a hard time." This perspective shift is revolutionary—transforming how we view our partner's annoying behaviors as fear responses rather than intentional attacks.

Ready to transform your relationship dynamics? Visit Empathi.com for free resources, including an app to identify your attachment patterns, or explore working with Figgs and his specialized team of couples therapists.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Relationship Healing
• 8:52 Personal Journey to Couples Therapy
• 15:55 The Three Pillars Approach
• 18:54 Breaking the Negative Feedback Loop
• 23:09 Accepting Your "Dog from the Pound"
• 25:43 Finding Connection Through Vulnerability

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth.

Speaker 2: 0:02

podcast Frank talk about sex and dating. Hello everyone, tamara here, welcome to the show. Today's guest is Figgs O'Sullivan. He's a couples therapist and we'll be talking about helping people go from conflict to connection. Thanks for joining me, figgs.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Thanks for having me on your show, Tamara.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Yes, thank you for being on, and this is for personal reasons and for the show, of course. I found myself newly moved in with someone and we were getting snappy with each other for a few days where, for no reason, it seemed like we just couldn't tell what was going on. And then I had just read your information, so it sounded very relevant for both things at the time. Great.

Speaker 1: 0:40

That's good. If it can help your listeners and potentially you personally, that's great.

Speaker 2: 0:47

Yeah, and how do you usually get started with clients? Or you can talk about how you got started in this work first.

Speaker 1: 0:52

whichever, yeah, so how I get started with how I got started in the work is, you know, I came from a dysfunctional home myself as a kid, and so it was kind of always my biggest heart's longing to be able to make love and relationship work and be able to be married, be a dad, and so you know some people, their life mission is to bring humanity to Mars. Other people it's as simple as I want to be able to be a better spouse, father, than my father was able to be. I don't say that with any bitterness towards my father, so that's kind of my life mission and goal. And then I was lucky enough to be learned and learning how to do it myself. You know, I developed the skills to be able to help other people do it too.

Speaker 1: 1:57

So, yeah, so you know, I'm married, I got two kids, I live, we live in hawaii, living, I'm staring, I'm looking out over the ocean. When I look off to the right, I actually am looking at the ocean. So all of the dreams of little figs have come true, which is amazing, right? I mean I literally and I don't mean that as a boast I literally pinch myself every day that I created a life, a relationship, a family that my little figs that didn't have those things can inhabit and, you know, get the love and connection and fun and play that he didn't have as a kid. But I get to have all of that now, which I think is a good thing to try and help people be able to do Right. Yeah, so that's you know. I feel very blessed to get to do work that has a meaningful impact on people's lives, and every time I work with someone it helps me too.

Speaker 2: 3:07

So yeah, for sure, yeah, having this podcast my every time I learn stuff and I just like I've grown, obviously from having this, just interviewing all the people, that with all the good knowledge, nice. So and for you, you get to help, you know, hopefully not have that happen to other kids, because the parents actually learn how to work together and have a healthy relationship and show that to the kids. So yeah it's like even better. So what is the usual complaint or who do you usually work with, like couples first, or people?

Speaker 1: 3:36

Yeah, I primarily work with couples, right, and usually the presenting problem is they're struggling to get along with each other.

Speaker 1: 3:43

Now, whether that's it's gone as far as there's an affair or, you know, someone has already left or they're already divorced, I mean, obviously there'd be very extreme scenarios Um, of course that happens in people's lives.

Speaker 1: 4:00

And then there's like on the far, on the other end, like people reach out just because they want to improve their communication and they scared each other because they had an argument last night. They didn't like how it felt. So there's, you know, different starting points, but basically, you know, typically a couple reaches out because they're struggling, they're suffering, and then I try and help them turn that suffering if you think of it like turn the suffering, a base metal, into gold, into like a transformational experience that helps them feel more connected to each other and love each other in ways that they didn't think was even possible yeah, yeah, and I know, like I said, when I first read about you, it was kind of it seemed like you basically said everyone gets this snappy way or like, some kind of like, and you forget what you said, how it happens or what it is exactly that happens, does that?

Speaker 1: 4:58

I know, you know, it's my. I'm not very good at remembering, I'm very improvisational. I never, I wouldn't, I don't know if I ever said the same thing twice. I don't know exactly about the snappy way, but I mean, but usually most people start off from a place where they both, they both think the other person is the problem, whether they're they explicit, they're explicit about that or implicit about it. Um, and then one of the first things I have to do is help them see and understand the narrative of how it's an us problem, not a me or you problem.

Speaker 2: 5:35

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, because when you both assume it's the other person, then that's when the snappiness happens, because you're just like defensive and mad at each other and they can do no right.

Speaker 1: 5:45

Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:48

And then what are some steps? Do you have like a basic structure or does everyone have the same kind of bottom line issue?

Speaker 1: 5:55

Well, so the basic structure. There's three main pillars to the work and the first pillar is attachment theory. And attachment theory if you're familiar with it or your listeners aren't that familiar with it, the easiest way to understand it is we all need to be emotionally bonded from the cradle to the grave, and you could substitute attached for emotionally bonded, or you could substitute the word loved for attached. So everybody needs to feel loved, everybody needs to feel connected to another person. It's pretty obvious to understand the cradle part right. We know human beings were not capable of surviving in the world without a birth mother or some really competent primary caregiver to be there for us. So you could have every other need met, you could have lots of food in the room you were born in, you could be very safe, you could have iPads, you could have an Amazon Prime subscription, but none of those things will actually keep you alive. What keeps you alive when you're born is connection to another person. We're literally connected via the umbilical cord, dependent on our mom at first, and then mom and dad, and then community to make sure a dingo doesn't come and eat us. So when we grow up we may think we're not as dependent anymore for attachment to survive. But nothing actually physiologically has changed that much. We might be a little bit more competent in the world, but our system deep down we still get really scared when it looks like our primary attachment figure, primary person we are emotionally bonded with, who, fingers crossed, when you're a grown up, when you're an adult, that's no longer your mom. That's a different problem if you're still primarily bonded to your mom when you're a grown up. But but yeah, like if it looks like your primary attachment figure is not there for you or you're not good enough for them, it's really terrifying for your organism or physiologically, and then you will do things to protest, being in the terror of being disconnected or not being good enough for the person that you is most important to be connected to or to be enough for. And then that brings us to the second. So that's attachment theory. So everything a member of a couple does, both members of a couple do, makes sense when we look at it through the lens of attachment. And then we add in the second pillar, which is systems theory. So because you're not an island, you're not just doing this on your own. Now we have two, but you think you're two separate entities, and you're right. But when you come together in a relationship, you create a third entity, which is the system of both of you together. And so then you could imagine how it works in the system.

Speaker 1: 8:51

When I get threatened because I don't feel connected, I protest in a way that sounds blaming and complaining, which threatens my wife, and then she feels like she's not enough and she like then protests by being defensive or shutting down, which of course makes me feel even more alone. You're not here for me. So then I do more blaming and criticizing. Then she feels more threatened, that she's never enough, and so she is more defensive or shuts down. So, through using understanding attachments, you see how we create a positive feedback loop that doesn't feel very positive, and then the third pillar is just experiential psychotherapy, and experiential psychotherapy is just.

Speaker 1: 9:35

We believe that in order to help people improve, break out of that negative feeling, positive feedback loop based on their need to be emotionally bonded to each other because they love each other, they're really important to each other we have to actually resolve a present moment of time. I'm not trying to change people's behaviors, I'm not coaching people. What we're trying to do is there's a present moment of time where that system that I just described is happening right now. That system that I just described is happening right now and through helping them see it from the outside instead of going from. It's not just the other person is blaming me, it's not just the other person is being defensive, is they see the entire system and the system is the problem. And the system's only happening because we really love each other. If I can have the couple actually experience that in their hearts, in their guts, right, then all of a sudden we can go from. We're not a threat to each other, we're just two threatened people that are having a really hard time.

Speaker 1: 10:44

And you can imagine, instead of going from, we both look like tigers, a defensive tiger and an attacking tiger. To now, we look like two scared little kittens and two scared little kittens. It's now possible for them to actually have empathy, compassion and love, comfort and soothe each other and the big tigers go away. Whether you're a defensive, shutdown tiger, blame and tiger minimizer tiger, whatever your particular flavor of tiger is, if we can get you to be in the experience of, I'm actually threatened because it looks like you're not there for me. I'm threatened because it looks like I'm a disappointment to you and we're just in our threatened selves. Now we can actually create this empathic experience with each other, compassionate experience with each other, compassionate experience with each other, where now we can be there for each other, love each other the way we both deserve and long for. So you know that obviously took me, whatever it is, five minutes to say, but that's it.

Speaker 1: 11:47

Another really important part of the work is I never deviate from literally what I just described to you. That's it Don't ever try and do anything other than make that experience happen where we can see it's both of us. It de-escalates us. And then, once we're de-escalated, now we can try and reach out vulnerably for our needs to be met and be there for each other Right, and reach out vulnerably for our needs to be met and be there for each other right In ways that we can't when we're still protecting ourselves as big tigers.

Speaker 1: 12:18

And then, of course, the reasons why we might have learned to protect ourselves the way we do. Again, whether you're a blamer, criticizer, shutter downer, minimizer, placater, there's good reasons why people learn to do those things. And like, when I say good reasons, there's probably very smart for your organism to learn how to protect yourself in one way to lessen the impact, the real pain of being abandoned or rejected or told that you're too much, being ashamed of being too much or being ashamed of not being enough right. You have to find a way to survive. But if you're going to make love and relationship work, at some point we have to see.

Speaker 1: 12:55

The way I learned to survive in the world is now actually increasing the disconnection in my present moment relationship and I got to learn some flexibility and ability to go from even if I don't I'm not even, I can't even see how I protect myself. I just think it's natural that this is what you do when you don't feel met by your significant other. You feel totally justified in it, right, but at some point we need to actually reverse engineer from a reactivity to I'm actually hurting and share I'm hurting. And we and it's a three-legged race Can't just have one person doing it. We need both people to do it, just like in any three-legged race. You can't have one person start. You can't have one person finish right without the other person, you're disqualified. So we've got to do it together and lockstep with each other yeah, and how long does it take?

Speaker 2: 13:47

or I'm sure there's extremes, but it's like some couples is it like a week and then they're totally fine.

Speaker 1: 13:52

I mean yeah, I mean, look it's for sure, like if you think about look what I said, like here's what the work is that everybody's a dog from the pound. It's hard for people to accept their dogs from the pound. They got injured in a previous home, they got hurt. They now walk through life scared. They see a shadow over their head and they're scared it's going to happen again. But now, of course, we have two dogs from the pound in the same home with each other, so they're both going to scare the living daylights out of each other. Helping those dogs on the pound. See, listen, it's not that the other person is a bad dog, it's not that you're a bad dog, you're both just scared dogs and you got to accept you're scared dogs and you're going to be scared dogs forever. Like, accept surrender, like collapse into that and then love each other in the places where you've been trying not to feel and be in all your life. Look, I can help people do the work, experience it, but then they have to do it forever. They don't have to do it with me forever, but it's not like we're done now. It's over. This is who we are. I'm someone that got hurt about being abandoned. I'm going to be sensitive being abandoned for the rest of my life. Or I'm someone that got hurt about being rejected for not enough. I'm going to be sensitive about being rejected for not being enough for the rest of my life. When you feel abandoned, when I feel rejected, we're going to scare the living daylights out of each other and we're both going to arm up. Because it's very quick, your limbic system reacts very quickly. We're going to arm up for the rest of our lives. We're going to arm up for the rest of our lives. We're going to get in the negative system with each other for the rest of our lives. We're going to have to find our way back to the neutral de-escalation where we can love each other now the way we couldn't when we were scared little dogs again right and felt threatened for the rest of our lives.

Speaker 1: 15:44

So one of the things that let's say if I'm successful at this, it's because it's expectation management. Where people think they should be, they're never going to get to. People think they're going to become whole people. They're a dog from the pound cell. They'll get to bury them in the back garden or drop them out at the bottom of a lake. I never have to feel that part. You, my dear partner, won't make me feel that part of me and I won't make that you feel that part of you. That's just not on the menu, it's not possible.

Speaker 1: 16:20

So when you say, like, how long does it take? How long does it take for people to accept who they really are and what they co-create with each other and, you know, actually be vulnerable, and that they're good, now this is what they have to do for the rest of your life, are there people that it takes one session? It's like, you know, they go see, you know some inspiring minister and it's demons be gone. Sure, but for most people the resistance is strong, even if they're not aware of it. Like, I am absolutely committed to not feeling abandoned, and anyone that makes me feel abandoned is going to get my wrath and I'm totally justified in it and undoing that narrative, and you could imagine, if someone is like that, they probably pick the partner that is on the same scale of commitment that if anyone makes me feel bad about myself.

Speaker 1: 17:10

I'll be watching eight American football games tonight. You're not going to be seeing me Right In the house. Right, I'll be down in the basement. Thank you very much Right. So no, it's a lifetime work. I can you know they can do it all with me or they. It's a lifetime work. I can you know they can do it all with me or they. At some point we got to accept who we are and grieve for the parts of us that were hurt, and then love, comfort and suit each other. And, like I said, we got to do it again and again for the younger listeners, for EBS.

Speaker 2: 17:44

There's no final destination final destination, yeah, although I would I mean, I know from personal experience too sometimes like where you're when you're in that wounded like dog pound state yeah, you can get out of it faster potentially, or heal longer.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Yeah, yeah, well right, no, of course, yeah, like, yeah, we want to like grow your window of tolerance for being able to be hurt, that you're not like completely numbing out or you're not like completely out of your capacity, like we've got to grow your window of tolerance to be able to be hurt. And then, of course, with a couple, we got to be able to grow your window of tolerance to be hurt together. Because when you're in the place where one of us feels abandoned, the other feels rejected or we both feel abandoned, that's actually the, that's the most people. They're trying to connect with each other in the next place, the place that isn't we both feel abandoned, or one of us is abandoned, one of us is rejected or we both feel rejected. They want to connect in the next place, but actually the place we have to connect with each other is the place where we both feel rejected, or we both feel abandoned, or one of us is abandoned, the other is. So that's a really tough thing, and so, in terms of my goal is always to get people to a place that they don't need me as soon as possible, so I try to help them have these transformational experiences, understand themselves, their partner and the system that they co-create with each other and then ideally we say goodbye because now you can do it without me, right, you can. You can go from disconnection to de-escalation to meaningful deep repair where you're loving each other now the way you couldn't in the fight, like you just don't need me any, like I'll cry with joy the day you come in to my office and you tell me we did all of this without you.

Speaker 1: 19:44

So at first it's training wheels with me and I'm literally sometimes I compare myself like I'm a dance teacher, where at first I don't know if you've ever worked with a dance teacher where they literally are moving your feet. It doesn't feel like dancing, right, you're literally just putting your feet in the numbers or the squares that they tell you to put them in and actually at first they might actually be picking up your legs and moving your legs. It doesn't seem like you're doing any dancing, but over time, eventually you're actually able, because we did it enough times, there was enough repetition. You have the muscle memory, you have the experience in your heart, in your gut. You can then do that yourself. You have an experience of it. Heart in your gut. You can then do that yourself. You have an experience of it feels good. Oh my God, it's worth actually doing this. So that's the goal, right, you know, I have a bird's eye view, understand what's happening, give it to the clients and then they've incorporated it, they've ingested it all and then they have a mini little figs inside them, both of them and they can do it without me, and that's part of why I like couples.

Speaker 1: 20:51

Counseling is individual counseling, like the person could be with me for 10 years. The intimacy is hard for an emotional withdrawer. Right, avoidantly attached person like me. Couple, I get to help them for three months, six months and we say goodbye and they make room for the next couple that I can help. So, yeah, the goal is it's supposed to be short-term, intermediate-term work, but I always like make it's important to tell people this.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Like say like you're the kind of person that doesn't work out without a coach, well, like don't, don't, just like beat yourself up and go, that's it.

Speaker 1: 21:30

I'm not working out now because I won't work out on my own.

Speaker 1: 21:32

You, you should still work out every week with a coach. Like it's okay, like I don't work out unless, like I do competitive paddling. Well, why do I show up for training? There are five other people in the boat that are relying on me to show up. That's okay, right, it's like you know, I'm really glad, like I'm pretty lazy, if I was going to do a solo sport. I might be lucky if I went once a week to training, because I have a million ways I can convince the ocean's too rough today. Oh, that's a very strong wind, right, there's a million ways I will convince myself not to go. So for the people that it's not three to six months, it's like after flip, say, we need to coach every week forever, or, like you know, the year two years. To coach every week forever, or, like you know, the year two years, it's still better than the alternative, no working out and you die 10 years earlier or your relationship ends because you just literally fine if we, if we can't get fixed, we just won't do the work at all.

Speaker 2: 22:34

Yeah, yeah, and since you talked about how to work, or working with you, you want to share how people can work with you, if they want to, or your resources. Yeah, the with you if they want to, or your resources.

Speaker 1: 22:43

Yeah, the easiest way is just go to our website. And you know it's me, my wife. We do the exact same kind of work. Um, we're both, uh, certified emotionally focused couples therapists. We have a staff of therapists that we and coaches that we train Um so, um so, and we have kind of like a professional sports mentality. It's a little weird for the therapist, like we really believe in being the very, very best. Everybody's trying to be the best. The fee is a rep defeats therapist charges as a representation of their ability to deliver value. So the best therapist charged the most amount of money, um, and so the only way someone is here is they're on the path. They're either at excellence or on the path to excellence, and so it's kind of a little different than the way most therapists think of the work.

Speaker 1: 23:37

Um, but yeah, the best place is just the website. It's just empathycom and it's empathy with an I on the end, not a Y on the endcom, okay, and on the website we have free resources, not just counseling and therapy. We actually developed a pretty uh detailed app for couples where you can work out your attachment styles and you can see, by both of you answering the questions, you can discover what is the system that you're co-creating with each other. All of that is free and um, we have courses and but yeah, but there is no. All of that stuff it's great, it was fun for us to create, but there's no substitute for you and a couple's coach or therapist that really knows what they're doing Right.

Speaker 1: 24:24

Um and so, if it's not me or empathy, I would definitely. If you're a couple, I would highly recommend you finding someone that really knows not just that, they did some training, they know how to do emotionally focused couples therapy. That's their specialty. They focus on it, they don't deviate from it. Um, the reason it works it's the gold standard. That's their specialty. They focus on it, they don't deviate from it. The reason it works it's the gold standard. It's the most evidence-based. We use it because it works right.

Speaker 2: 24:59

It's just the most effective way to help couples. Yeah, and real quick. What do you? Well, I guess we already talked about this. What do most couples do is just get defensive and do what you just said. So, yeah, never mind, I will ask uh, what is your?

Speaker 1: 25:08

do you have any final thoughts, like just kind of run down, or yeah, just the one thing I would just remind people is the only people. The only reason people fight in love and relationship or argue, is because they love each other. It's really. It's sometimes when things are so simple it's hard to grasp what that means. You know, we often get caught up as ah, we're fighting because the other person is a pain in the ass. Ah, we're fighting because the other person is a ball buster, like whatever you're like. Actually, the only reason they're paying the ass is they're threatened inside. They're scared that they can't find you or there's no way you'll be happy with them. The only reason they look like a ball buster is because they're terrified. Again, right, and why are they terrified? Because being connected to you means so much to them.

Speaker 1: 25:55

So people's worst behaviors are just the things they do when they're scared. They can't be connected in a way that makes them feel safe. As simple as that sounds, right, that's really important that you can make that reframe in your head. When your partner or spouse looks the most annoying, all that's happening is they're hurting because being disconnected from you is awful for them. They may not react the way you do. Like you may be like. You know, I'm going to like use eight boxes of Kleenex right now and wail, listening to All by Myself, by Celine Dion, and so it might be very hard for you to understand.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Someone else hurt by going down into the basement and not coming out for two days, you might just think that person didn't give a shit. Look at them down there. That's actually not what's happening. No one goes down to the basement for two days without really hurting inside. That's just what they do to survive. Only fighting because you love each other, and your worst behaviors are just the things you do to survive when you're hurting because disconnection is so terrible.

Speaker 1: 27:04

You've got to always keep coming back to that. And if you can't come back to it, you've got to do the work you know to work out those knots, those resistance points, because everyone has them. Well, no, you don't understand how terrible my spouse is right. Like yeah, we've it right. Like like yeah, we got to do the work right to on on what I do, like like a massage. Right, we got to like unwind some of those um friction points or knots that stop you being able to see. Hey, you're both people that make sense, you're both people that are just hurting everybody's okay, just calm down. Nothing to see folks. I just got two people that love each other that are scaring each other. They're going to be okay in a minute. We've got to be able to make that shift inside of ourselves and each other. That's it.

Speaker 2: 27:53

Okay, yeah, well, thank you very much. Good stuff, and obviously you're effective, so it's always good.

Speaker 1: 28:01

Yeah, no worries, yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:02

And, like you said, simple steps, but doing it is easier said than done.

Speaker 1: 28:07

Great.

Speaker 2: 28:08

Great information, all right, and if you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. And be sure to follow the show as well and check out Empathycom for all of his FIGS information. So thank you again.

Speaker 1: 28:21

You're welcome.

Speaker 2: 28:23

All right, thanks everyone, frank talk, frank talk sex and dating educate.