So You Married Your Lust… How’s That Going? #117

We explore why marriage is not dating, why friendship beats chemistry for the long haul, and how discernment keeps couples from preventable heartbreak. Shellie R. Warren shares raw stories about porn, intimacy, birth, grief, and the everyday habits that make or break love.

• putting healthy before happy as a marriage filter
• friendship and lifestyle fit as the core of lasting unions
• six months of premarital counseling focused on childhood and intimacy
• grief, standards, and choosing not to settle
• doula work, Black maternal health, and teen mom advocacy
• radical transparency in writing about sex and mistakes
• porn’s programming effect and unrealistic expectations
• preparation for first-time sex and compassionate education
• values, purpose, family dynamics, and compatibility
• improvement versus change and ending the parent-partner trap
• discernment when mind, body, and spirit do not align

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Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Shelly R. Warren
• 0:31 Why Marriage Coaching Without Marriage
• 2:28 Divorce Regret And Healthy Over Happy
• 5:10 Friendship As The Core Of Marriage
• 7:10 Grief, Standards, And Choosing Not To Settle
• 10:45 Single Parenting And Valuing Marriage
• 13:05 Doula Work And Healing After Abortions
• 16:45 Teen Moms, Cesareans, And Advocacy
• 20:30 Writing With Radical Transparency
• 24:37 Talking About Sex Honestly
• 26:42 Porn, Expectations, And Intimacy Damage

Transcript

Intro: 0:00

Welcome to the Straight From the Source's Mouth Podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating.

Tamara: 0:06

Hello, Tamara here. Welcome to the show. Today's guest is Shellie R. Warren, writer, three-time author, marriage life coach, and doula, and we'll be talking about sex relationships and maybe porn addiction. Thanks for joining me, Shelly.

Shellie R Warren: 0:21

Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.

Tamara: 0:23

You do all these things, and you've said you're not, you haven't been married and you haven't had kids, but you're a marriage coach and doula. Do you want to start with or either that or how you got started in general?

Shellie R Warren: 0:36

Okay, we can do both. From the skeptic side, if you are a Bible follower, um the three main people who spoke on marriage were Paul, Christ, and Moses. Moses was the only married person. So the the passion for it, I often tell people don't underestimate the insight of children that come from divorce. I come from two-time divorce. My mother was married three times. My mom actually died a month ago today, actually. Um, her last marriage stuck, I think it was 28 years. Um she divorced my brother's father, I think technically when I was like 19, but they were separated for multiple years. So just observing the breakdown of a marriage, observing people that should have never been together in the first place. Even as much, both of my parents are gone now. My dad died 11 years ago, and even as much as I get so much of who I am because of the hybrid of them, I will still say they had no business being together. Like none. None. So I just think I've developed a passion for, I really like um uniting people that make sense. I really like when they're dating, breaking them up when they don't. I'm very aggressive in premarital counseling. Some people go to sessions for three times, even in church, they'll go three times with a pastor for an hour. No, that's not premarital counseling. Mine's at least six months. We probably spend half of that on childhood and intimacy because those are the two things that are huge in a relationship.

Tamara: 2:19

Yeah, I love that. Because I mean I've I've said that too. Like when people are together, they shouldn't be. Someone else comes along that they obviously should be together. I don't ever feel bad when it doesn't work out for the original couple, like, and not that I'm the one trying.

Shellie R Warren: 2:34

Well, I'm a little different. So here's the plot twist. My niche is reconciling divorces. I'm actually different. So that's the other thing I don't like, which makes me passionate about marriage. I think people act like marriage is dating and it's not. So a lot of times people get divorced because the rate of divorce regret is actually upticking very high. Um, people that worked with me know my motto is you should always put healthy before happy. Only children expect to be happy all the time. And you definitely shouldn't expect someone else to put more work into making you happy than you're willing to do. So a lot of times when people get to the point of divorce, it's not because of abuse or even adultery. You know, stats say 20% of men and 13% of women cheat. Look how much society talks about cheating. You would think like 90% of people cheat. They don't. A lot of times people get divorced because they just they don't have the tools to stay together. Um you're not taught how to stay together. You know, like, isn't it interesting how we can stay with friends for years and years and years? They piss us off too. We work that out. But we, you know, we're quick to say even before we get married, you do this, you do this, you do this, I'm out. And it's and that's another reason why I'm big on you should marry your friend. A lot of people don't marry people they like. They marry people they lust, they marry people they have chemistry with, they marry people that have the same value systems, or they marry people because they just want to get married. But the people I know have gone the distance, they're good, good friends. Because you know, life will get you back to love. If there's no like, we're in trouble. So I've just always been passionate about it. And then if the follow-up question is, then why aren't you? That's fair. I had a fiance, he died 30 years ago this year, um, in a very freak accident, uh, his senior year in college. I've had um a couple of serious boyfriends since then, but I think because I've done so much work in marriage, that's why I'm not married. And what I mean by that is people take it like because you see how much work it is, you you don't want to do the work. No, it's more like I value it so much that I'd be an idiot to get in a stupid marriage at this point. And so at 51, no kids, never married. Um, I would just need to pick better than a lot of people I work with. And so I'm just real careful. So I still value marriage. I'm not against it. It's just I'm I'm not gonna get married just to get married.

Tamara: 5:14

Yeah, and there's I mean, there's plenty of people now that aren't this. I think I can't remember the exact stat, but it's definitely a high percentage of people higher that have never been married and no kids.

Shellie R Warren: 5:24

Like Yeah, and I you know, I I would venture to say, I mean, unpopular opinion, that's probably also because of we're three generations now of single parenting. People don't really see marriage to value marriage. I don't think it's really because people don't want to get married, it's because they haven't seen it. And because people date like they're married. That kind of I'm kind of over that too, you know. So all these 50-50 conversations and traditional versus non-traditional. But we're rarely talking about in a marriage context, we're talking about in a dating context. So if you marry 15 guys before you actually get married, why would you value marriage once you do it?

Tamara: 6:05

Yeah, like yeah, most people treat a serious relationship as basically how they do.

Shellie R Warren: 6:13

Yeah, yeah.

Tamara: 6:15

So yeah, I mean, like I said, definitely plenty of people aren't married. I understand that. And I I've been divorced for a while, so I haven't I haven't thought about getting remarried like pretty much at all. No, I don't have children either. So when it comes to being a doula, what what um brought that about?

Shellie R Warren: 6:35

So I could have been a mom four times. I terminated four pregnancies. I wrote about it in my first book. We don't have enough time for that interview, that's a whole nother interview. But I became a doula, kind of a part of the healing process. Also, as a black woman, the mortality rate for our babies is ridiculous. We don't get the same amount of health care. And I used to be a teen mom director, so um, I would go in public schools and mentor teen mothers. So that's actually what inspired me because some of these girls, they're too young to be moms for sure, emotionally and mentally, but physically they're not. Like they're probably in the best shape of anyone's life. Some of these girls were track stars, and their doctors were already scheduling cesareans in their second trimester, which shows how little they respect their bodies. And so they're young, so they didn't know what questions to ask, they didn't know like what contractions should feel like or what Braxton Hicksman or what a breach baby is their babies. So I became a doolo to become an advocate for them. But over time, it's been very healing for me. Like sometimes the mother's comforting me after she's having a baby. I cry every single time because I just can't get over humans coming out of people. Like you know it, but when you see it, it's just overwhelming. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Um, for me, I had kind of decided that around if I was not married, because I had no desire to have children, if I was not married, um, we were gonna cut off around 40, 42, and that's because I think a lot of times women are having children later than ever as well. Um, I've caught many babies in their four when their moms in their 40s. However, I don't know if people think about the future of the children very much, and I like to. Um a college friend and I were a year apart, but our moms were almost 20 years apart. The stuff he had to be concerned with in his 20s and 30s is stuff I absolutely did not have to think about. And so I think sometimes we should consider that. You know, your your daughter graduating from high school and you're 65 means that when she's in her late 20s, you're in your late 70s. There may be burdens she shouldn't have to consider. Your people's 20s and 30s, they should just live. So that's why I had a cutoff time for me. But I'm at peace with that. Um, I think more than anything, probably because I knew I could have. You know, maybe if I had never been pregnant, I'd struggle, but I I've made peace with the decision I made. So that's the dooling journey. The writing journey started before everything. So this marks my 25th year of being a professional writer full-time. I've always just been real open and candid about my life, and I think that's kind of been the hook of why I've been able to stay in the career. So I just write a lot about my own personal experiences. I remember like one of the platforms I write for now, it's called Exo Nicole. I'm almost at eight years with them, and it's been a great relationship. A few years ago, I wrote, and I was like, I want to write about all the men I've had sex with, which is 14. And they're like, Are you sure? Yeah. The number? Yeah. I think that's always just kind of worked for me. Even with my first book, it was with a Christian publisher, but I was very open about my abortions. One time I was a wedding planner, I slept with the groom. Wow journey. But I think people are always drawn to like transparency in the world of filters and tons of makeup and just acting like and editing IG reels. People just find transparency refreshing, even if they don't like, agree with, or respect what you're saying, they can trust it because it's honest. So I think that's just always kind of been my tagline. I'm gonna be pretty direct and pretty interesting.

Tamara: 10:35

Yeah, authenticity, yeah, yeah, transparency. I I'm generally that way too. I have found that I have censored myself a little more on this than I would, but normally with like everyday conversation, I'm just blurred out anything and everything, and people are always a little like taken aback, a little drawing. I don't even like realize I shouldn't say some stuff, you know, especially years ago.

Shellie R Warren: 10:59

And you know what? I'm learning too, like I do read the room, my discernment's pretty good, but sometimes it's not that we shouldn't say it, it's just people don't have to like it. Like sometimes we just have to make peace that we're not one of my favorite quotes when one of them's just alike. When someone's just alike, one of them's unnecessary. That's the truth. So it's kind of like you don't have to like it, and I can say it. Both can coexist, you know what I'm saying?

Tamara: 11:25

Like, both can I've definitely read the room and found out and figured it out that that it was.

Shellie R Warren: 11:29

Yeah, you can make it energy, but I'm like, Yeah, I'm the same way.

Tamara: 11:32

I'm just like, whatever. Like, not everyone's puppete.

Shellie R Warren: 11:35

Yeah, you'll be fine, you'll recover, you'll be fine. Yeah, yeah.

Tamara: 11:39

It's and it's mostly oversharing about sex, which is why I have a podcast about sex. You know, it started out as like I've even had a therapist who was like enthralled by my stories, and I'm like, you're not supposed to be listening for that.

Shellie R Warren: 11:54

I still think it's weird that in such a hypersed culture, we don't really talk about it, we like talk around it, or we talk about the act itself, but we don't talk about like sex has so many components and so many layers, right? I was doing an interview recently, and I was like, I think it's so weird how our culture has oversold casual sex, but y'all are ready to die over cheating. If sex is not a big deal, then why are you so mad that your partner's like it doesn't really sound like it's about the sex, it sounds like it's about your ego. Because if we really valued sex, then you'd value it the entire time. So yeah, I feel the same way. Like, there's so many layers of sex, you can talk about sex forever.

Tamara: 12:36

Yeah, and that that brings me to I know we talked about potentially talking about porn addiction. I haven't had an episode on it specifically. So, and and you've did you coach people or just you you taught about it or or mentioned so it's been a minute since I have I'll touch on a couple of things about porn.

Shellie R Warren: 12:56

I was with an organization that got people out of sex and porn addiction. It was a Christian organization, but very atypical. Like they had a documentary called Missionary Positions, they always pushed the envelope. I was a person that toured on college campuses to talk about it. I will tell you, and I did it for nine years, but that was almost 10 years ago. Um, I will tell you this at the time, the fastest growing rate of porn addicts were wives and pastors. We always like to talk about what porn is a men's thing and what they're doing to women and whatever. A lot of women like porn. A lot of women like porn. Um, and virgins. Virgins is a really high um because Gen Z is, we probably have more virgins now than we've had in a long time. I'd venture to say it's because Gen Z is hyper stimulated. Um it's kind of sad that they're not excited. They're not excited about a lot of stuff that's weird. They're not excited to drive, have sex, get married, have children. You know, all the little milestones, the markers of adulting, they don't really care. Um something else about porn is, I think, part of the reason why wives are really high. Again, it was a Christian-based organization. So you're kind of taught, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, get married, do it. Don't do it, don't do it, do it. But do what, right? So what isn't talked about a lot too is one in four men fake orgasms and one in four women. So a lot of people are dissatisfied, not talking about it. You know, they're they're lying there, letting their partner get whatever they need. And then when you go to sleep, I'll watch porn and jack off. That's basically what's going on.

Tamara: 14:41

Yeah. Yeah, I knew a married couple that, yeah, they both were both virgins, got married, had no idea what they're doing. She hated it and never wanted to do it again. And yeah, right.

Shellie R Warren: 14:52

And it's not, and the thing is, and then I know couples that were virgins and they've had a great sex life. I it's I just think we're not preparing people. Like the moral to the story isn't, I hate that test drive car analogy. Like, people aren't cars, so the moral isn't like you've got to test drive it, but you do need to be like prepared for and aware of what you're getting into. Like I remember one, I've I've been fortunate to know a few couples that were virgins, husband and wife, when they got married. And one couple in particular, um, she was so mad at me when she came back from the honeymoon because the other side to my thing is I've been absent for quite some time. Uh at the time, though, I wasn't. And so I was telling her, girl, you're gonna be hanging off the chandelier. There's gonna be she came back and she was like, that thing was huge. I was in pain. Y'all didn't tell me that. You know what I'm saying? And so it's like they've been married 25 plus years now, but we didn't prepare her. You know, the reality is the first time is messy and awkward and uncomfortable. The beautiful thing is she's with somebody that promised to not leave her and they could work it out, as opposed to her being just a hit it from a one-night stand guy, right? But we need to prepare people for like the emotional, mental, spiritual dynamics of sex. We don't talk about it. It's like we only talk about penis and vagina. That's yeah.

Tamara: 16:16

And and like before Gen Z, when people were trying to just lose their virginity to get it over with, kind of thing, then their first experience wouldn't not be that great in the back of a car or whatever. They didn't weren't sure if they liked it. I always I always share the story that like my first was with someone like I was with you know, we dated, and then he was my first and only, and we were together a year and a half, two years, and I learned everything there was to learn because he had been with someone before me and knew what to do. So thank god. How old were you? I was 17 when I the first time I did.

Shellie R Warren: 16:49

I was so I'm a survivor of sexual abuse, so my first time was, but my first time I would have chosen, he was younger than me, and it's so funny looking back now because he didn't he didn't know what he was done, and he shouldn't have. I was 19, I just told you he was younger than me, right? But stats do say the way you're introduced to sex is kind of how you feel about sex, until you've either had a very different experience or you've gotten therapy for it. So that's the other thing that's not discussed a lot, too. Like girls are like it rough, oftentimes their first time was sexual assault, or somebody was drunk, or girls are like older men, oftentimes their first was an older man. That's what I mean by like how powerful sex really is. Because it is. I just I just read an article about sex changes women genetically in ways we don't even talk about. So it's like, how could you have like a whole another person's body part in you and it not affect you? It does.

Tamara: 17:46

And some say like every person there's like some kind of connection or like a I don't even know how to describe it, but yeah, like you're imprinted by each person.

Shellie R Warren: 17:56

Yeah, some like when I think about my the thing about me is I've never had a one-night stand, I've never slept with someone that I don't know their middle name. I slept with friends, that was my pattern. So, you know, like a guy, even if he was interested in me initially, I I don't have sex quick. So then we become friends, then we have sex. Okay, that gets complicated too, right? But when I look back over all of them, there is some kind of connection for sure. Some are way more, you know, you feel like I ran into my first love um a couple of years ago, and it was still butterflies. Um, last year I ran into one of my baby daddies because I told you I had four abortions. It wasn't butterflies, but it was definitely an awareness of the role he played in my life, right? It's it's I I wish we would teach that more. Like it's not just what separates us from animals is they have sex on instinct. We're more complicated than that. Yeah, and so it's kind of like if you're not willing to gamble the residue that it might leave behind, you might want to not do it with that person. Not not do it, but not with that person.

Tamara: 19:08

Yeah, speaking of which, going back to the couples that should and shouldn't be together, is it uh is it obvious like immediately, or does it take a minute when you're doing when you're doing counseling with them or in your experience everything?

Shellie R Warren: 19:20

Yeah, there's like there's certain things you can ask people, like um if your value systems aren't similar, why are you together? If you don't know your purpose yet, I don't think you should get married. That's a huge one. Because, especially if you're a man, but kind of both ways, because a part of what your partner does is compliment your purpose. That doesn't even always mean they work within it or help you in it, but they have the kind of temperament to balance it. Um, I come from an entertainment industry home, and so and a lot of my circles entertainment. Why would you marry someone that Doesn't respect that you have to be in the studio at 10 o'clock at night, or you've got to catch flights, or they may have to watch the kids extra because you've got why would you even marry that person? Or a doctor. Why are you like gonna marry someone that's on call 12 hours and then you're bitching about they're never home? Like that's a real simple thing. Yeah. Um, so if someone's still figuring out who they are, what their purpose is, once they figure that out, they might have chosen someone very different than before they knew.

Tamara: 20:28

Yeah, I know a friend that was that thought her potential husband wasn't ambitious enough. And then she's like, Well, is that something you really want? If they're ambitious, they might not be home as often and might not be available. She was so she immediately like switched. She's like, Yeah, like that was the one thing she didn't think she could live with. And then she was like, Yeah, that's actually better.

Shellie R Warren: 20:47

And then or you haven't met their family, like, what the hell are we doing? You're marrying the family more than you think. You're marrying the family, even if it's the influence of the family. Holidays, people like I don't observe holidays. I do my birthday, but I could give a damn about a holiday. That's a really big deal when you marry someone who like lives for Christmas. Because if I'm like, I don't want to go to the Christmas party, I don't want to go to your mom's house and decorate the tree. That little stuff, that's one of my models, too. It's the little things that break up a marriage. You'd be amazed how many people can survive a big thing like cheating, but can't survive if you don't put that toilet seat down, I'm gonna kill you. You know, 10 years of the toilet seat will make you get a divorce. That's another thing. Life, like lifestyle compatibility. Um, how you see just going day to day is a cute. So, yeah, sometimes I'm looking at people, I'm like, you love each other, but you're not gonna do life together well. You can tell. You're already irritated that he doesn't clean the car out. You you're not gonna do marriage well. You're already upset that she doesn't want to cook twice a week. Y'all are not gonna do life well.

Tamara: 21:55

You should be friends, or make you know, make conscious effort to change, and if you're willing to like sustain that change for the entire thing.

Shellie R Warren: 22:35

But we kind of need to set people where they're at. If you're going in and saying you're gonna change, you're already doomed for failure. Like, I'm a big believer that the right person will improve you, they should never want to change you. It's different. Like when you're with the right person, you're inspired to want to be a better version of yourself, but not a different version of yourself.

Tamara: 22:54

Yeah, I mean, I think that's how I meant it as more of like inspiration to like if if you already have an annoying-ish habit and you can stop doing it, like But you're but if you're going in like I'll just get you to change it, we're already doomed for failure.

Shellie R Warren: 23:10

And a lot of women do that, actually. Um, I'll marry him and and we'll change him. And that's manipulation, too. Like, I tell people often, people think that parent and partner are paladromes. They're not, you're not their parent. So it's like if you can't go in like this is an adult, and I respect their views as an adult, and some places we're gonna compromise, and then we need to choose our battles. Then don't get married, just stay single, enjoy living your house and doing things your way, but not like, well, once I get married, he'll be different, or once she gets married, she'll be different.

Tamara: 23:45

Let's manipulate, yeah. Or obviously that's not gonna happen more than likely, and you see how long you're gonna suffer through it or sustain it.

Shellie R Warren: 23:54

Or sometimes they won't do it just to spite you because they're sick of you nagging them about it, like they would have considered it, but now it's it's being rebellious because you're getting on my nerves talking to me about it.

Tamara: 24:04

Yeah, definitely. And is there I know I were jumping topics, but I kind of wanted to go back to the porn addiction thing. Have you um like when you were talking to people about it, what was its effect? Like, was it I must obviously it's if they're uh truly addicted and they're not having sex with their partner, like that kind of thing.

Shellie R Warren: 24:24

Have you experienced that or was it more of a Well the first thing that goes on record is porn addiction is used way too loosely, like narcissism is like you can have narcissistic traits, but you know, the actual disorder needs to be diagnosed. Same thing for porn. Just because your partner watches a lot of porn and you don't like it, doesn't mean they're an addict. But that said though, it definitely sets you up to if you're in a long-term committed relationship, and one or both of you so so here's a wild story. Uh the organization I was working for, we had a blog, and I would get people to write on the blog for me. And there was a couple, and they're divorced now. The husband when they were single wasn't a virgin, but she was. But they had decided they would wait until marriage so that he wouldn't cheat. And I put air quotes up because dating, cheating, and married cheating, I see a little differently. So they were dating because he didn't cheat, he would watch porn. Their wedding night, um, they were having technical difficulties with literal intercourse. They didn't know until later on she was she literally had a blockage in there. But because she was a virgin, she was thinking something was wrong with her. So she was like, Well, maybe I'll watch porn too and it'll fix it. They ended up becoming very enamored with porn and did not have sex with each other for a whole year. That's a wild story. And then once they had gotten the physical thing fixed, they then they had to break off from the porn and learn how to have sex, right? So now it's two compounded issues. So the thing that I think concerns me the most about porn is its unrealistic expectations, and people don't realize how, like a part of what we worked with too is there was another team that would go to the porn shows, they would help get people out of the um industry. Ron Jeremy toured with us for a while. A lot of people you're watching hate porn, like the people doing it. I don't like calling them porn stars, I call them porn actors because a lot of times it is acting. There might be like 15% of people that do it just for love and sex, and there genuinely are those people. This is great. I get paid to do what I love. But then there's a whole nother component of people. Not everybody was sexually abused, because that's the assumption. Not everybody used to strip, but a lot of people do do it either because of convoluted relational issues, a way of kind of getting back at whatever gender they're mad at at the time. There's a lot of anger that goes on. You can kind of see it. I used to watch porn and you can see like these people can't stand each other. Look how they're talking to each other and spitting on each other, and F you bitch, and like what in the world, right? If you're watching that, how in the world can you not think you're programming your mind? Because studies say it affects you on the same level like a drug hit. How can you not think you can watch two hours of somebody saying fuck you bitch and then going to your wife and being loving with her? Or vice versa, you know. Um, so that's one of my biggest issues. It destroys intimacy. You can still have the sex, but it's kind of like it teaches you to have sex at your partner, not with your partner, in my personal opinion.

Tamara: 27:46

Yeah. Well, I think this is a good time to talk about how people can reach you or work with you, or your books, or like whatever you want to share about yourself, too.

Shellie R Warren: 27:55

So I don't do social media, and life is blissful for me that way. I left Facebook probably 18 years ago. I left for like a couple months and never came back. And yeah, I don't see ever coming back, actually. We'll see. Never say never, right? Um my three babies, which are my books, Inside of Me Lessons of Less, Love and Redemption is the first book. Pure Heart, um, A Guide to Sexual Integrity, is actually a book that was as a result of working with that organization. So it is, I wrote it, but it was really more for them. The first and third are all me. And then the third book came out last fall, and it's called Inside of Me, My Story on a 20-year lens. And it's just kind of like all this happened since the first book to a certain extent. How to Find Me. Okay. M-I-S-S-N-O-S-I-P-H-O. So it's no sebo. My family lives in South Africa, so my mom's husband gave me Nocebo, so that's where the name goes. Okay. Um, at Gmail. I'm always open to working with couples. I just find married people fascinating. And it's always funny. Two things tend to happen. Because I get more referrals than anything at this point. There's either gonna be the skeptics, you're never been married, or the guys are like, oh, she's just gonna beat me up. But they you'd be surprised. I actually expect way more from us ladies. So I like watching married people figure out how to be married better. I think that's what I'm here to do. I was just gonna ask her, are there any final thoughts or closing comments you want to make? But that almost seemed like one unless there's another. I would say this. Um, in honor of my mother who's been gone a month, that's a whole nother story, too. We were estranged, actually. But there's something she says, but always very wise. Disarmment prevents experience from being your teacher. Please move in discernment. If you're wondering if you should do something or not, ask yourself why you're wondering if you should do something or not. And then a model I live by is if your mind, body, and spirit aren't in agreement, pause. Like we have our own trinity, and our mind, body, and spirit, they're in sync with each other. So if your mind is in agreement with some of your body and spirit are, or your spirit isn't agreement with some of your mind or body are, don't move until you figure out why it's not. Because it will reveal something about either it's not the right thing or it's not the right time.

Tamara: 30:33

Yeah, I like that. Awesome. All right, well, thank you very much.

Shellie R Warren: 30:39

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Tamara: 30:41

That's awesome. And if you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. All right, thanks, everyone, and thanks again, Shellie R.

Shellie R Warren: 30:48

Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

Outro: 30:52

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