Dating Without The Chase #147

I sit down with relationship therapist Thomas Westenholtz to unpack why anxious daters so often get pulled into avoidant relationships that feel intoxicating at first and miserable later. We map the nervous system patterns behind chasing, criticism, and rumination, then lay out what secure love actually looks like in real dating behavior. 

• how the anxious-avoidant cycle forms and why it repeats old wounds 
• why criticism shows up as a desperate attempt to get through 
• using an internal “compass” across thoughts, emotions, and body signals 
• recognising persistent anxiety as a signal of inconsistency and confusion 
• early dating signs of secure attachment including clarity and follow-through 
• why calm can feel boring when you are used to chaos 
• trusting actions over words and avoiding fantasy-driven attachment 

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Transcript

Welcome And The Breakup Context

Tamara 0:00

Hello, Tamra here. Welcome to the show. Today's guest is Thomas Westenholtz, a relationship therapist helping anxious daters stop chasing the wrong people and build secure, lasting love. Thanks for joining me, Thomas.

Thomas 0:12

Oh, it's a pleasure to be here today, Tamara.

Tamara 0:15

Yes, I definitely appreciate this as an anxious soon-to-be dater now that I've broken up with the person who just didn't understand my anxiety and how like my attachment style, how it works. And or at least just thought of, you know, had a different philosophy on how to make it work. So we never could see eye to eye. So we can start with how you got into this and then move into like what how you would coach me, maybe, or you want to start here and then talk about how you got into this.

Thomas 0:41

Yeah,

Why Anxious And Avoidant Pair Up

Thomas 0:42

of course. So I think the the reason I kind of got into this was I work as a couple therapist and I had so many couples come into the practice, and what became quite apparent was that there was a clear, clear trend. I would say 95% plus who came in with constellation of one person having an anxious attachment, the other one having an avoidant attachment. And it became quite apparent how one that these two attachment styles often get drawn to each other in what we would describe as a reenactment, where the anxious is seeking out somebody, obviously not consciously, that has a more avoidant attachment because they often grew up with someone who wasn't as responsive, and then they have this hope that they can turn them around and get a happy ending to this story. Often that's not what happens, is that in replays the same trauma again and again and again. And I kind of saw how these two attachment styles became very difficult for each other's nervous system to handle, because as the anxious tend to chase, the avoidant who is quite uncomfortable with bigger emotions tend to pull away even more, and so the anxious get more anxious, and so the cycle goes. Right? The lack of responsiveness creates even further anxiety, the lack of clarity, they're not coming back, and often over time the anxious become more critical, which is almost, you can say, a desperate attempt to try and reach and get them to understand and respond, and their void and feel more and more inadequate. And I just saw how this cycle continued. And what kind of made me get into this was I thought, you know, I can obviously work with this, and yes, people get better, but I also recognized it's always gonna be an uphill battle. It's like trying to plant a flower that's meant to grow in a rainforest, but trying to plant it in a desert and come and plant it every day. It's gonna be really hard work. Can it work? Maybe, but it's gonna be difficult. And why I always choose the path that's most difficult? If actually we could learn to spot what is more suitable soil for our nervous system. Because for me, it's not about saying these are bad attachment systems, this is a good or bad people. It's about understanding what is it that our nervous system is more compatible with, what is it that makes us feel more safe and nurture us more. So that's kind of what motivated me into this path and kind of trying to help people understand how they could avoid a lot of this suffering that I'm seeing in the therapy room.

Tamara 3:06

Yeah,

When Anxiety Turns Into Criticism

Tamara 3:07

it's uh I mean, obviously, you know, since you're but when you said I start getting the attached the anxious person starts getting more critical. That's exactly what happened. Like I just he could not he felt like he could not make me happy. I was just getting more and more critical as I was trying to explain and uh show what I, you know, why it wasn't working and what could be done, and then he just totally felt like he couldn't make me happy. And I and I've done work or interviewed another person who teaches the difference between men and women. And he said this line and it really got me. He said, constant criticism is like a death to a man's soul. And that is what I felt like I was doing. I mean, some people would say, I'm curious your thoughts on that. But yeah, that just really hit me when I said that because I was that's what I was doing. I was just criticizing him and he couldn't win towards the end.

Thomas 3:55

Yeah, and and what I think here is it's really important to be gentle on ourselves because we turn that mode on as a survival strategy because we can't get through. So essentially it's not because we want to put our partner down, it's not because we enjoy being critical. I call it an almost desperate attempt at getting through. Because what essentially happened is the avoidant partner, you can say, is kind of barricaded behind their castle, they locked all the doors and windows, the anxious are trying to knock. And in first they are just knocking, right, or ringing the bell. And when nobody responds, their nervous system starts getting more distressed. So they knock a bit harder. And so slowly this escalation goes up because the nervous system is telling them there's a threat here, you can't get through to somebody that you need to be able to soothe. And eventually, yes, we do bring out the cannons and try to blow down the wall because we have to somehow get access to our partner. And it's not an attempt to want to harm them or make them feel little, even though that often is what the end result is, but it's really just a desperate attempt at getting through. But this is also why I'm hoping that some of the things I'm bringing out there helps people understand how to select a partner where they don't have to play through this dynamic that obviously becomes very painful for both partners.

Tamara 5:14

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely the idea. And that I just left him a message saying that, you know, he sent me a thing a real Instagram reel about Italians, how they just leisurely go through life and everything's chill and cool and wonderful, and like it was much more than deaf than that, but it was like, yeah, that would be great. And I could do that with you know, with security and consistency and safety. But yeah, and that's lacking. But yeah.

The Compass For Picking Better Partners

Tamara 5:40

So um what well yeah, so how do you find someone that's a better match? Like, or what do you look for? Or is it the kind of stuff you do, or what whatever you think?

Thomas 5:51

It's a really good question. So I think the first part is kind of recognizing the pattern that we tend to start playing. And as I said, very often someone with more anxious attachment tends to be drawn towards people. And it's not based on gender, but more frequently you will find the the women coming, the woman coming in and having more anxious and the man more leaning towards the avoidant attachment, most of the time. And you often have this reenactment happening, right? We're trying to get a responsive father or a responsive caregiver, and therefore chasing this, and that becomes very compelling for the nervous system. So the first part is to kind of slow down. And I always I call this the compass, and I really wish we taught this in school, because biology has spent millions of years developing a quite incredible internal compass that only has one purpose to get us back in balance and tell us what is good for us and what is not. And these three layers of the brain is we're all familiar with cognition, which is the logic, right? You might start ruminating, trying to make sense of what has happened. Then there's the emotional brain, you might also be very familiar with this, you feel the anxiety, right? And then we have the somatic, soma means body. We have the sensation, this is if I'm hungry, well, the right action to take is to go eat food, right? Then you don't feel hungry and you're back in balance. If I'm cold, well, put on a jacket. That adjusts the compass back in balance. And that was actually the point of these three layers of evolution. What happens is somewhere along the line, when we grew up, we learn to disconnect from this compass. Either because we learned our needs wasn't important, so we learned to not sense the compass at all, which is often their void, and they're not even aware. What am I feeling? What am I sensing? I don't know. So they don't even know this compass, which is why it's often difficult for them to communicate. And for the anxious, they often are very aware. They feel so much, right? Often in the hyper-vigilance, they feel so strongly that it becomes overwhelming. And often for the anxious, it's that they do feel they are aware. However, what becomes difficult often is to then ask for that. They have learned to, I'm not worthy of this, right? I have to shut down my needs, I have to be hyper-vigilant, focus on other people. And that strategy never works long term, because long term that builds resentment, it builds anger. That then comes out later in the critique that we very often see, right? Because it's not a sustainable strategy. So part of it, number one, starts with self here. That's starting to learn to come back and noticing these three layers of this compass. My thoughts, how I make meaning, my emotional responses, and trusting those as a way of guiding us back. Because anger, as an example, is not a bad emotion. It's telling us my needs are being neglected here again and again, or somebody's overstepping a boundary. It's part of the biological compass saying, hey, pay attention. The problem is if we don't pay attention and adjust back, the same thing has happens as if you're in a cold and don't put on a hot jacket. Well, you get sick, right? You start feeling worse and worse. So this is why the difficulty is that the anxious often feel these responses. They're very aware of the compass, but they have not learned how to take the adjustive action because they learned that that's not okay. I have to focus on others, not self. So it's the for the anxious data, it's often noticing the compass, which they normally do very well. But then the difficult part is being able to take the correct action to come back in balance. And they say, but how do I know when I take the right action? Well, you know because your body calms down. Just the same way that when you put on a warming off jacket, you don't have to ask yourself, did I put on a warm-in off jacket? You know because you feel warm and comfortable and the body signals calm down. You don't have to ask yourself, Did I eat enough food? You know, because your body tells you by you not being hungry anymore, right? So you know you're taking the right action when the organism calms down. And this is also where we can use this as a guide that when we start feeling anxious with somebody, if it's consistent, not if it's a one-off, but if we consistently feel there's not clarity, we're confused where we stand, right? We feel we're constantly chasing something and having to put so much energy into that, then the organism is giving us a signal here, right? That's what the anxiety is. It's giving us a signal saying, hey, you're overextending, slow down and listen. And that's often a step where we don't listen, we just continue to give, to give, to give, to pursue, to pursue, to pursue. So I would say that's the first part. The second part is then being able to obviously recognize what are some of the patterns of a partner who actually likely can respond to my cues, who can help soothe this anxiety. Because the challenge of the avoidant anxious dynamic is the more time you play through it, the more anxious your nervous system becomes. It's almost like replaying the same trauma pattern again and again and again. And we have a saying in neurology, what fires wires. That means the more you replay the same neural network, the stronger the becomes, right? And this is why part of a key element of getting better, because we learn these attachments through social relation and we also heal them through social relation in a large part. So part of it is being able to recognize what does it even look like? And for a lot of anxious daters, they never had this model, so that's why it can be really difficult. They never had a felt experience. So how can we look for something we've never seen or experienced? And part of it is then learning how does these signs actually look like when I'm dating somebody or going out and I'm actually with somebody who maybe have a more secure attachment who would be able to help my nervous system feel more calm and safe.

Signs Of A Secure Dating Match

Tamara 11:47

Yeah, that sounds amazing to just know it so easily. Yeah, because I think, like you said, as an anxious person, like pretty much most have been avoidant. But yeah, so uh like in on a date or like after a few dates, like how what are some signs that they would be a good match for an anxious person? Like what would they say and do?

Thomas 12:08

That's a really good question. And I think there's two components there's what we can observe in the outside world, and there's again what your own compass is telling you. So let's just start with a compass because we were talking about that before. So, what will help you say, Am I dealing with somebody who can help me feel safe and secure, or somebody who will be nurturing soil as I call it? If we're all a plant, we need a nurturing soil to grow in. And a nurturing soil you will know because you don't feel that anxiety. You feel a sense of ease, you feel relaxed, you don't feel you're overextending yourself and getting exhausted. You're not sitting at home and worrying what that text means. And that means that you can know yourself because your your worrying mind, right, doesn't get triggered, it doesn't go off. You don't sit and ruminate and overplay again. Or did I should I send that text or not? You don't have confusion, you don't have disorientation in your thought process. It's very clear. Signals are clear and you're clear. Yeah. So cognition is not confused and trying to figure out what things mean. Your emotional sense is I feel calm and at ease here. And it might not feel as exciting because part of the anxious avoidance dynamic is it's highly addictive because it creates almost like taking cocaine. You get a high because they give you all that attention and it feels really good, and then they pull away and you crash, right? A bit like taking a drug. And it actually brings the same biochemistry in your brain as if you were taking drugs, hence why it's very difficult to detach and become very, very painful to detach, because we actually become addicted. And if you scan a brain, you'll see the same thing happening inside the brain as somebody who's addicted to alcohol, drugs, or even slightly OCD. And part of it is then being able to see how would a partner act who has a more secure attachment, who can respond and make me feel safe. Well, for one, they communicate very clearly. There's no ambiguity. They won't say, Hey, let's meet soon. And then you're sitting at home pondering, what does soon mean? Why have they not contacted me? That's not how a securely attached person communicates. They will say, Hey, I'm having a super busy week at work, I'm feeling really un like overwhelmed. But I really would love to see you on the weekend if you have time. Yeah, it's really clear. The intent is clear, they communicate clearly. If they can't be there for a while, there's no sudden disappearance without communication, which is why all the worrying, the confusion goes away. The second part is they are consistent and stable. So you don't have an up and down. And this is why a lot of people, anxious data, tend to say, oh, but it's a bit boring. Those men's are boring. And that's because the nervous system has gotten used to instability, because that's what they experience mostly throughout life. So calm in the beginning, it's like if you take somebody who is taking a drug and you suddenly try to tell them to live normal life, they're gonna say, that's pretty boring, because I'm used to this high intensity, right? And then crashing. So that's a bit what happened. The nervous system needs a bit of time to adapt. That boring and safe is actually where I can feel at ease and at calm, right? So they are very consistent. You won't have this big affection and then suddenly they pull away. That's not how securely attached people engage. They show up consistently the same way. Also, they're very good at both getting close and communicate their needs and their emotions. They can do that very happily because they anticipate positive responses from the world, but they can also listen to yours. They don't get overwhelmed and call you needy or suddenly say try and dismiss. They're avoidant, obviously, in their discomfort around emotion, will dismiss other people's emotion. A securely attached person doesn't need to do that. He can just listen or she can just listen and accept this as another perspective and another person's experience. So they are much more calm and relaxed and staying present. You will also notice they have more flexibility of mind. What that means is they have more capacity for different perspectives. Yeah, so the more stress our nervous system gets, the more narrow-minded the brain also becomes, right? Because that's what happened in stress response, right? Fight or flight is tunnel vision. And you might have experiences too, right? To know when I'm really stressed, I don't have much space for other people's opinions. And what you will see is in this more calm, secure nervous system, is that there's a lot of flexibility, meaning I stand by my opinion and my experience as valid, but I'm also fully open to hearing yours, even if it's very different. I don't have to shut it down, I don't have to correct you because I have this flexibility of mind that comes with safety. And that kind of tells you, oh, I'm dealing with a safe, consistent nervous system. And also just look for things such as does word match action. Because what very often will happen is there's a lot of nice words we hear in the beginning. There might be a lot of future pacing and dreaming about, oh, we'll do this, we go on holidays next year. And we tend, especially as an anxious person, to fall for a fantasy. And often what we grieve is actually the loss of the fantasy, not the person. Because we get sucked into this fantasy, right? And it's very important to slow down and say, trust the action, not the words. Trust what you see. Because often what happens is we get what's called cognitive dissonance. It means when your brain sees two opposite things that they can't really align, let's say you hear really nice things, but then they disappear and don't act like that, then the brain gets confused because we can't fit this person into one box, and that's what the brain likes to do. It doesn't like when there's two different places. So it kind of has to disregard one of these, and it says, Oh, actually, maybe it's you know, we make up some excuse for why they are inconsistent, why they don't act and follow up on their words, because then we can keep the fantasy alive. And that's what yeah, go ahead.

Tamara 18:06

No, I was just gonna say, yeah, I definitely have seen that and been like the delusional fantasy world thing. But um uh oh, I heard Chris Jenner say if she can't figure something out, she can't stop thinking about it. And that dissonance does that and makes you ruminate even more when they're inconsistent because it it it makes no sense. You either have to accept it and question them constantly, which is what I did, or just you know, forget about it. But yeah, if you if it doesn't make sense to an anxious person, I think specifically, you just can't help but keep thinking about it.

Thomas 18:35

So that's right. And that's that's the whole point, it creates disorientation and confusion. And I think probably the most harmful part of this is it starts people doubting their own internal compass, because they start end up doubting themselves and say, Am I not able to see things clearly? Right. And you will hear that after a while of this going on, this dynamic, people will actually start saying, Maybe I'm not perceiving it, maybe I'm confused, maybe I'm just angry, right? And and that's where they no longer trust their internal signals, which become very confusing and difficult because we can't really navigate the world if we can no longer trust our signals. So if you are experienced consistent, I'm not saying you have one day of feeling a bit anxious with someone, that can happen in any dynamic. But if you consistently feel anxious around somebody, if you consistently experience inconsistency, if you consistently feel that you have to chase every time there's a fracture or issue, you have to chase it, then you're not in a place that will be nurturing for you. Because again, a key part of being with someone who can make you feel safe is the fact that they come back. So if you bring up an issue, even if they don't have the capacity in that moment, they will come back to it later. They will come back and say, hey, I remember you brought this up yesterday, that this was really difficult for you. Help me understand. That's how a secure partner will respond. The avoidant partner tends to want to ignore it and hope that it goes away. They do not like coming back and bringing up past hurts or past difficulty because they don't like those emotions. They find it hard to deal with them. So therefore, their strategy is to just try and avoid it. Hence why the anxious feel more and more alone, right? And often feel they have to do more and more to bridge this gap. It's almost like they are standing on one side of the river and you have to keep building that bridge. And sometimes you fall down and you have to build it again. That's not relating. Relating means two people who are building a bridge, right? And we can meet somewhere in the middle.

Tamara 20:54

Yeah, yeah, I definitely. I mean, this is making me feel a lot better too, like just knowing that you know we were different and this is how it looks. And it wasn't gonna change much, like you said. So um, and then are are there early signs when you're of well, I guess you can you kind of talked about that, but like like I said before, like an actual date, like day two or something, they say something or do something. Is there anything where you'd be like that's definitely typical of this?

Thomas 21:23

Or yes, that I think there is. So the first part that you will see very early on, are the signals clear. So if somebody says, I really like you, and then they disappear and you don't hear from them for a week, that creates confusion, right? That will leave you in a place, but they said they like me, so I really want to pursue this, but they are not messaging me. So again, there's a misalignment, right? That so that creates a sense of confusion. And again, that doesn't happen if you're dealing with a secure, balanced individual. There is no confusion because again, the communication is really, really clear. They would simply just tell you, hey, I'm away on my work trip, I won't have much time at all, I'll be pretty flat out in the evening, but I really enjoyed our date. I want to see you again. What about we meet up when I'm back, whatever, next first day? In that you can see it's It's all clear. There's no parts that are left for you to get into confusion and ponder. And part of what becomes difficult for the anxious is that all these gaps are left. Meaning all they're left with is their own fantasy now to fill out these gaps to try and make sense of what's happening. And that's what's causing the anxiety. Hence why when you're dealing with someone who can be nurturing for your nervous system, the anxiety doesn't kick in because that gap isn't left for your own mind to start filling out. It's already clear why they're not in contact, because they're away. They already told you they're probably gonna be so exhausted they don't have time to communicate much. So you don't have to wonder, oh, did they not like me? They've been very clear, it's just because I'm gonna be overwhelmed. And they stated when they're gonna come back again, right? And say, I want to see you, this is when I can do it. Does that work for you? So there's not much left to be confused about here. And I think that's one of the key, very early signs you can see when you're dating. And your nervous system will tell you, because as I said, you don't have to go into pondering. It's really crystal clear, right? Whether they like me, whether they don't like, whether they want to see me, why they're suddenly in contact or less in contact, because they're communicated at consistently, not once they communicate every time clearly.

Tamara 23:35

Yeah, I mean, I I've literally never had that happen while dating. So that's why I had to ask so many questions about what is this, because I mean, and they do say like the secure people find each other and they stay together, and it's the only people out there dating are the anxious and the avoidance generally, unless you happen to catch a secure person, you know, like a widower, maybe her widow. Like, I mean, I'm sure there's more secure people out there, but yeah, I've literally I I've probably sounded like I didn't know, but like it's been so rare to have someone be so communicative. And or or they were so boring, like you said, that I was like, dismiss them. And that's probably more likely what happened.

Thomas 24:11

Yes, I hear you. And also, you know, there is some validity to what you're saying, and as we get older, the pool probably does become more of anxious and avoidant because they're more likely to have relationships that kind of switch, right? Um, and more of the secure stay in long-term relationships. However, there are secure people out there for sure for many different reasons. As you say, widow, devastating things could happen. Sometimes relationship just doesn't work out, even for a securely attached person for whatever reason. There could be different desires. Someone maybe want to live in a city, another one in the countryside, right? So people, this maybe one wanted kids, the other one not. So they definitely are out there. But I also hear you say, Yeah, I haven't met many of them. And sometimes I just met people that were boring, that I dismissed. And actually, that's what I hear very, very often. Because when you do meet someone, if we have gotten used to chaos and instability, then safety feels boring at first. It's almost like having to calm down. And actually, it does take a while for the brain to adapt before it can find excitement in that world again. But it does come if we slowly allow ourselves to adjust. And part of that adjustment phase is to spend more time around people that do have a safe, consistent nervous system that maybe we feel are more boring or we don't respond as much to them. But it doesn't have to, because again, we can meet a securely attached people that you have things in common with, right? That makes it more interesting and engaging. So it's not that we have to sit and talk to people if we have nothing shared view around the world, right? Or how we want to live life. That's not the point here. The point is just to be able to say, hey, my nervous system is feeling safe here. Let me explore this a little bit further.

Tamara 25:56

Yeah. Yeah, that does sound great. And I already like am thinking of people from the in the past that it may have been more secure that I didn't give a chance to. So not that'll necessarily reach out, but you know, it's good to know that there were some. So um, do you want to talk about how people can reach you and work with you? And then we can maybe wrap up a little bit.

How To Work Together And Closing

Thomas 26:20

Of course. So, yes, people can obviously go to the website if they want to find your match academy where there'll be more. I also run a podcast uh called Couple in Focus. And really just this is more focused on tips for people who are on relationship, but I'll be doing more episodes now as well for people that are looking for relationship. And I created a program that kind of really takes people through the steps of how to identify what nervous system you are, what nervous system you're compatible with, because we do know what attachment stars are compatible and which are not. Um, how to kind of scan for that, both using your own internal map, but also knowing the external signs, um, and how to check in and just learn the basic skills of what do I even do when I am in a relationship with a person like this? Because maybe I do find someone, maybe we do have things in common, maybe for the first time in my life I feel quite safe and valued and I know where I stand, I'm not confused, and that feels kind of great, but it can also be scary because we might anticipate that it's suddenly changed, right? And how do I then engage if I am more anxious to not push this person away? Because of course if we come at them with anger, then eventually a secure person would set up a boundary and say, this is not how I want to engage. So how can we communicate this very valid anxiety? And I give lots of tools on how you can then do that and understand and communicate that internal experience in a way that's more vulnerable instead of accusing or attacking, that makes it more likely to bond instead of then pushing a person like that away.

Tamara 27:55

Yeah. Yeah, sounds amazing. And I've learned a lot from this podcast and interviewing people, and I've talked about this, and I've definitely just for my own in my own defense, I've I've come a long way with my anxiety and we we only had one really bad encounter where I was like, you know, grabbed onto him, like you can't leave me, kind of thing, and then we calmly talked about it after the fact and just realized that that, you know, and that was the one and only time that kind of thing happened. So but yeah, this is great stuff for all those anxious people out there, and um, yeah. Can't say more. I mean, it's just very helpful, very helpful.

Thomas 28:35

And I just want to recognize how painful that is, and I think a final note to kind of say is let's meet ourselves with a bit of compassion. Because it's easy to look in our worst moments when we were in the most despair and say, I can't believe I did that, or maybe I pushed them away, but also have a bit of compassion that there's a reason for why we got here. Yeah. Both there has been probably trauma, there has been difficult experiences growing up that makes us feel anxious, and we've probably been with a partner who couldn't actually respond to us that then brought this anxiety out and make it very distressing. So I just want to hopefully leave people with also having a bit of compassion and not get hard on ourselves and start thinking we are all to blame because that's not the case.

Tamara 29:18

Yeah. Yeah. Even said that, you know, he's sorry I couldn't be more supportive and understanding. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, we'll we'll leave it at that. But I think this was important and wonderful information for all those anxious people and for the avoidance to understand a little more about where we're coming from. And it's not an attack on the avoidant person, it's just you know, the internal struggle. Yeah. All right, well, thank you again, uh Thomas, for being on. And if you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it all uh rate it as well. Thanks again, everyone. Thank you.

Thomas 29:54

Thank you.

Tamara 29:54

Alrighty, bye bye.